to think that the NHS is really quite shit and that not everyone who works in it is an underpaid hero?

[Adenosine]

There is a strange British preoccupation with the NHS which I think prevents honest public dialogue about its many shortcomings. At the time it was set up it was innovative, but now there are many other universal healthcare systems most of which are better than the NHS and many of which cost less money.

It's ranked low globally and really quite shit yet few people dare criticise or. AIBU to think that we really need to be far more critical?

@frumpety, DMIL was treated under the EHIC programme in France, where we were on holiday; then returned to UK. I think she then asked BUPA for repayment of the (discarded) drugs, but I don't know whether she got it.

I think everyone is scared of a system driven by the need to cut costs and maximise profits. When the market dips, margins get tighter, thresholds get higher. We need more flexible, imaginative ways of solving health problems

We need more flexible, imaginative ways of solving health problems

How about treating patients when they first come into the GPs surgery.

When I was pregnant with Dd I stretched and something went ping and I was unable to lift my foot off the floor.

When I went to the gps i was sent to see a consultant who never once looked at me. (I don’t mean examined me I mean actually turn his head to face me) he referred me for physio.
I should have had an MRI but they wouldn’t send me for one because the £300 it would have cost was too expensive.

To save money every fortnight I had a physio appointment and every couple of months I attended the consultants appointment.

I couldn’t sleep because of the pain I was in.

This lasted for 7 years until I attended a private osteopath who diagnosed me with in 15 minutes of having what she believed was a slipped disc.
Sent me for an MRI then gave me proper physio and treatment.

So to save the NHS £300 for an MRI that would have meant the physio I was being sent for was actually doing me some good and would have had me on my feet within 6 months

I went to the physio about 180 times say at £50 per time (probably more as I was sometimes there for 2 hours) and then saw a consultant every couple of months at say £100 per time so the cost would have been in excess of £13000 as a minimum.

Then you have to add on the amount of tax and NI they lost because I was unfit for work. Then you are getting into the 6 figures

Just to save £300 on an MRI.

That is what is wrong with the NHS.

It is so busy counting the pennies and giving people a shit service that they can’t see the waste.

I could go on and list other times over the years that I have seen how much money is wasted

@frumpety

We are in this position - though we are residents not citizens.

Compulsory insurance scheme - everyone is covered and it is free at the point of delivery.
Contributions are MEANS TESTED.Those with no money pay nothing. The wealthy pay up to a ceiling of c 700 Euros per month of which the employer pays half if you are employed. If you are not employed but still have a high income from investments, rents etc you pay the whole thing yourself. Income from state pensions is disregarded. But wealthy retired people continue to pay into the system. There is an element for adult social care.

Care we have received is way better than the NHS. Same day GP appointments.
Self referral to specialists such as gynaecologists, dematologists, opthalmologists etc. Usually get an appointment immediately. Teaching hospitals on a par with those in big UK cities. Accomodation in hospitals much better than UK - double or three bed rooms. Single rooms for a supplement.

British people have been brainwashed into believing the NHS is something special. It really isn’t.

British people have been brainwashed into believing the NHS is something special. It really isn’t.

Have to agree - it's become a religion that people aren't allowed to criticise. Because of that, the small number of incompetents/lazy workers don't get challenged and continue steal a wage.

My auntie who lived for 50 years in Switzerland retired here in the UK. She developed cancer and had outstanding care.

She knew she was dying, she wanted to die at home in her own bed and the NHS supported her to do this.

Nurses came in daily to give her pain relief, care assistants came in to help her was and dress and make her bed. The Hospice got involved and sent in a home help. Nothing was too much trouble.

My cousins from Switzerland were blown away by the care she received in the UK. They said that in Switzerland this wouldn’t have been available for her. They all have expensive health insurance and while the care is very good they said it wouldn’t stretch to the type of personal care my aunt received.

Likewise emergency treatment is excellent generally ...if you’re in a car crash then a paramedic may well save your life.

I’d like to see emergency treatment and terminal care continue to be free while there could be some kind of payment in addition to taxes which would fund the rest of it.

I don’t think all people working in the NHS are angels but I do think most are there because they want to support other people. It’s why I went into nursing back in the 1980s and although I no longer work as a nurse the desire to support others has never left and has been the basis of every job I have had since.

Most are hamstrung by an out of date system.

The system outlined by @electricwhisk would be acceptable to most people I would hope. It's free to use, while means-testing ensures that those who can afford to contribute do so, for as long as they live.

Out of interest, where is the means test built into the system? Via payroll taxation or by completing a tax return I guess? Is the usual objection around the bureaucratic/compliance burden?

DuckWillow

This is what I was saying in pps about dps care under the NHS

The NHS aren’t there for you when your cancer is treatable and a minor op would have you back on your feet.
They aren’t there for when the cancer gets terminal and you want a treatment that might squeeze another few years out of your life.

But they can’t wait to put you on the pathway to death because they are good at that.

@Duck, I am delighted that your aunt had such excellent care from the NHS after living in Switzerland for most of her adult life. In her own bed is possibly overstating the case, after a 50 year absence, but I assume her siblings were here? And as a taxpayer, I think waltzing home to die on the NHS after paying taxes elsewhere a little hard to stomach.

Sorry, @Duck, I misunderstood you. I read it that your aunt was English, and returned home to die in her own bed. If she retired here, then I follow.

My aunt didn’t come home to die. She moved here to retire....as she had every right to do being British born .She didn’t plan on coming here and using the NHS for cancer treatment because she sadly didn’t have a crystal ball to predict that..

She was retired here for 10 years before the cancer was diagnosed and was sadly already terminal.

And the “Death Pathway” as people call it was not started until a few days before she died. It was the right decision and at the right time. They didn’t starve my aunt..she was free to eat if she wanted to...the same with fluids. She didn’t want much ..just half an ice lolly was enough to make her feel refreshed. She had pain relief and nursing care. I would have argued with anyone who felt inclined to interfere with unneeded treatment which might distress her at that stage.

@XingMing....see my post above.

electricwhisk can I ask which country you are in ?

And mine @DuckWillow... if you read it, you will read my apology for the misread... all my fault!

Any mum’s on maternity leave working in NHS? I’m supposed to be maternity leave in coming days and unfortunately I’ve been signed off sick for pregnancy related backpain for 6 weeks. I’ll be on maternity leave from 30 weeks. Will it affect my maternity pay or will I get paid as normal Mat leave?

Wot??????

I don’t know why anyone in the U.K. says ‘go private’ if you don’t like the NHS. Private is no use in the U.K. if you have a heart attack or are involved in an accident. A lot of people don’t seem to understand that it’s not a universal alternative.

If you can afford it, it’s good if you want elective surgery, e.g.your piles done, or a hip replacement. It’s no use in an emergency.

As a family we have very good reason to be thankful for the NHS, particularly for the fantastic care given to a baby grandson, who was in the ICU 3 times with bronchiolitis.

A sister living in the US, who was paying $800 a month insurance for herself and her daughter, still had to pay a $2000 excess for the treatment of a badly cut finger.
I’m not saying the NHS is perfect, I know it’s not, but IMO a lot of people take it for granted, and as for time wasters, it’s high time they were charged - ditto the morons who end up in A & E purely because they’re drunk.

Like many large organizations, the NHS is poorly coordinated and badly managed. There are fantastic people and also a lot of mediocre people. The supply chain is terrible - that's why there is a shortage of PPE in some places, and they pay criminal amounts of money for basic things like plugs. But this is not unusual in an organization that is a mix of centralized and decentralized functions. Could it be better? Absolutely. Will more money help? Probably not. It would just disappear into the many black holes rather than where it could really make a difference.

However, I do thank all those people who are putting their lives at risk working on the front line at the moment. They deserve a much better organization than this.

@Mia20 if your mat leave has started proper then it's started and you'll get the 8 weeks full, 18 weeks half pay. Won't effect the amount.
I thought they could only enforce you starting mat leave for preg related sickness from 35 weeks though

Singapore’s healthcare is absolutely amazing. But - the NHS does its best.

I haven’t read the whole thread, but I wholeheartedly agree. There is a lot of substandard care in the NHS. I have been a victim of it, and so has DS.

I started a thread a few months ago about midwifery care, and the hundreds of testimonials from posters who shared their appalling experiences of being denied good obstetrics care were heartbreaking.

I agree with OP that the sanctity of the NHS, as we know it, is preventing some rational discussion on whether it really is fit for purpose, or whether other models should be looked at.

I haven’t read the whole thread, but the first few messages are all focused on US care. Well, there are more than two countries in the world. Just because we don’t t believe that the UK model is working, doesn’t mean we have to embrace the US model. Besides, this is just whataboutery.

I have experienced medical care in Canada, Cuba, Hong Kong and France in addition to the UK. There is nothing in the UK model that isn’t done significantly better in other countries.

Having said that, NHS workers haven’t signed up to be at the frontline of a pandemic. I have a lot of sympathy for the risks they are running to save the UK from broader damage.

The Swiss system is better. Everyone is insured. If you have no money insurance is provided for you. The healthcare is great and my NHS-acquired MRSA was viewed as a rarity there.

The NHS could be improved, it shouldn't be a scared cow. But this will involve everybody contributing more to pay for it, and doing more to take care of their health.

The NHS staff working through this pandemic are bloody heroes as far as I'm concerned. I'd want to run a mile. I have 6 friends who work for the NHS. So far 3 have come down w COVID and passed it to their families and the others reckon it's just a matter of time.

Always the same posters on these threads having a go at the NHS..
Beginning to see why the teachers get so indignant !

I totally agree, having lived in other countries. It has legitimate and noble intentions but is a bloated, bureaucratic and inefficient organisation. Throwing more money and resources at it without any meaningful reform will not help attract better talent and develop staff.

It is not at all unreasonable to expect the best possible healthcare in our country, with zero tolerance for medical mistakes.

I have no doubt most NHS workers (like medics and nurses around the world who signed up for their job) try their best.