to think that the NHS is really quite shit and that not everyone who works in it is an underpaid hero?

[Adenosine]

There is a strange British preoccupation with the NHS which I think prevents honest public dialogue about its many shortcomings. At the time it was set up it was innovative, but now there are many other universal healthcare systems most of which are better than the NHS and many of which cost less money.

It's ranked low globally and really quite shit yet few people dare criticise or. AIBU to think that we really need to be far more critical?

Haha, I don't even know why I've got sucked into this thread. The majority of people in this country understand that, like10stucknoue says, the nhs is underfunded but amazing value for money. We don't want more privatisation, we want the government to stop starving it of cash.

Lots of people I know now are going private. We had to go private for our daughter, she had speech issues caused by hearing issues and needed a procedure on her ears. She got tested, diagnosed and operated on within 2 weeks. 6 months later, the appointment for initial tests came through on the NHS. This was for a 3 year old, and she would have waited at least 8 months from initial GP visit for the procedure, with her speech falling increasingly behind. I know it's not life threatening but 8 months is a long time to wait for something that impacts on how you learn to communicate. I know lots of people in the same boat, people in significant pain that cant wait the months / years the NHS wants them to wait and have had to go private. I feel sorry that it's now a 2 tier system dependent on your income. It is desperately short of funds and is rightly concentrating them on life saving procedures first but everything else is getting left behind

Really @Dontdisturbmenow ? This doesn't apply when someone with bowel cancer is told to go away as he just has piles and another with prostate cancer is told he has reflux and is given a shed load of gaviscon to cure it

I kind of agree, but I think mainly what’s had a devastating effect it that the scope of the NHS has widened far more than it was ever to be. I honestly don’t think the NHS is fit for purpose. I know anecdote doesn’t equal data, but almost everyone I know has some anecdote of being let down by them. A close friend kept being turned away from the GP as having tonsillitis, but the tone they discovered the throat cancer it had spread.

As for now liberalism and new labour, I just can’t stand people moaning about the tories when labour under Blair/brown did the same things, but just blames it on the tories, just staggering hypocrisy.
It annoys me.
I’ve always thought things like health care and education should be cross party issues anyway.

Logically when you think about it, governments don’t want to invest in things, that only future governments will feel the benefit of. They want the cheap/quick option that will benefit them NOW, so don’t want to invest.

@Dontdisturbmenow yes you are right but other countries are seeing the same trends in elderly, obesity etc and still have better outcomes than us.

@Newuseroftheweek a few hundred a month is something that most people don't have - if fact private health is only a couple of hundred a month in the U.K. for an ok plan. Australia is very much a two tier system and only really good if you have cash!

@ClientListQueen Hello from another HS sufferer. I also had three surgeries!

Yes, really @atsavethecat. The biggest cost to the NHS is type 2 diabetes. Read the link below
[[https://www.diabetes.co.uk/cost-of-diabetes.html]

Diabetes cost the NHS 1.5 million an hour. Yes, 1.5 million, it's not a typo. 10% will be type 1 diabetes which can't be prevented, but 90% is preventable illness, mainly caused by poor lifestyle.

You make my point, if the nation started to take responsibility for its own health, healthcare workers the NHS could use its resources to treat people like those you gave as example.

It's not the NHS that isn't fit for purpose, it is our unhealthy society that isn't!

Alternatively, the NHS could also step up by being more prevention focussed rather than being a "band aid" service.

As far as I know, some other countries have better systems, but you have to pay a small fee for GP visits etc, which I think is not a bad idea. No-one will have the courage to completely overhaul the NHS though so it continue to be abused by timewasters, inefficient and overstaffed (by managers) while understaffed by medical personnel. Other countries' healthcare also demands that non-residents/non-citizens have health insurance to cover their costs - also in my opinion a good idea but always gets shouted down when mentioned here.

300+ posts and not one further response from the OP.

I actually left the NHS as I was sick of working with people "after the event" and now work in preventative care.

Hmm, I do see where you're coming from but ultimately I think you are BU, as a pp has said, it's the best we have and I would rather have it than not.

But yes, it's far from perfect, my experiences have not been all that good and I haven't had to use it all that much. And YADNBU about the underpaid unsung heroes. There will be some genuine hard working people, for sure. But a lot I come across in hospitals are far from over worked. The communication is also diabolical.

Wow, what a lot of replies! Thanks everyone for an interesting discussion so far. Quite heartened to see that lots of people agree with me. I will admit I started this thread on coming home from hospital with a child who had been on a nebuliser due to GP refusing request for steroids earlier yesterday so it was frustration that prompted it coupled with endless election talk about how much we all love the NHS and how we must protect it from Trump.

I agree with others who have said that the original model no longer works in the context of contemporary healthcare needs and treatment advances. Of course the model has been tweaked over the years, but it's been politically motivated bolt ons rather than thinking about how said needs can be met now. I just think it's annoying that as we head into winter and presumably yet another series of crises and failures there is nothing but unimaginative rhetoric from all parties in the run-up to this election.

Other countries do seem to do it better and although they do spend more per head in the case of say Spain the difference is not that much despite having radically better outcomes.

I like others roll my eyes at responses along the lines of "well it's better than the USA". This is not a particularly high bar to set and also the US system is, like the NHS, atypical in global terms. Most countries don't use either model and are better for it.

This doesn't apply when someone with bowel cancer is told to go away as he just has piles and another with prostate cancer is told he has reflux and is given a shed load of gaviscon to cure it

Dp had an abscess on his spleen.

His stomach looked lobbed sided like he had a ballon up his shirt on one side of his body.

One doctor had him lay down and tried to wrestle it to go back into his stomach to lie flat.

The fact that it didn’t burst and kill him on the spot is very lucky.

Not one of all the doctors he saw multiple times took any notice of him and were too quick to write a prescription than question that if someone is coming to them listing all the symptoms of bowel cancer and saying their father died from it that maybe some stuff for constipation wasn’t going to cure it no matter how many different tablets or suppositories they prescribed.

Of course the NHS is not perfect and needs reorganising. But it’s got so much worse in the last 9 years and that is because of lack of funding.

I and my family need to use the NHS because of chronic health problems. So many members of my family and friends have been helped through a huge variety of health issues. Many parents I know at school have been treated and saved from cancer.

We have no spare money after outgoings. We could not afford private health care. So many others I know are in a similar position.

OP are you proposing that the likes of us should be left to die?

I kind of feel like we need to starting paying. I know we already pay for alot of things. I just think if everyone paid £1-£5 a month there would be millions more a year put into the NHS. Or they should start charging for certain things. Like alcoholic related incidents should pay for their treatment. It's clearly stretched and struggling massively now. I've known people who have been misdiagnosed by GPS and had cancer. Some have not lived. Waiting lists are terrible. It's an average of six weeks now for a routine GP appointment. That's not ideal for anyone. Whilst nobody is blaming the GPS directly it's still not good enough. Serious things can progress within 6 weeks.

A nurse actually told me drs go abroad now as they are treated better. You can't blame them really can you. Not when you see how much pressure they are under.

I live in a town that had a hospital with a children's ward, maternity unit and a full time a&e. The children's ward closed down years ago. Then in 2012 they maternity department was shut. By the time I had my second pregnancy the community midwives had lost their floor in the hospital and were shooved in two tiny rooms next to the scanning room. A couple of midwives said to me how fed up they were. They were sick of how impersonal it all was now. They used to be able to chat to the patients. Now they have to have their heads stuck in a computer doing things the modern way. They don't get to deliver many babies now because they only get to do home births. Overall the career they had chosen has taken such huge changes and one even left half way through my pregnancy because it wasn't the same anymore.

Another example was my son was poorly last year. Only a baby. We took him to our local a&e with no peadatric unit or nighttime a&e. The reason being it was 45 minutes to the next hospital and we have other children and stuff. The staff were so amazing with my son. It was a horrible day. Then at teatime we were told he needed to taken over to the hospital 45 minutes away by ambulance. The stress was unreal. We got over there with nothing, no clothes, no money, minimal nappies and told he was staying in and we couldn't leave him. So I had to go home and my partner had to stay. As a non driver I couldn't easily get back over. I felt like the worst mum in the world not being able to see my poorly son easily. Not being able to nip my partner's things over. There was miscommunications everywhere. My local hospital didn't bother x-raying him. The bigger hospital was not impressed and the Dr had him x-rayed straight away. There was no food available one night for my son 14 months old so he was given cold chicken nuggets and chips when he was in with a lung infection and tonsiltis. There was no bedtime drinks for him. He had to drink prem baby milk of the maternity ward.

I think the staff are mostly angels. They are the kindest people. Overworked and yes underpaid. Paramedics gets a terrible wage in my opinion. Nurses in my opinion always offer that special touch that drs don't always give. I don't think it works well as a freebie anymore. I also think there will be a shortage soon of nurses etc. It's not the job it used to be I doubt.

Just to add there used to be a nursing school at our hospital too. Great for local people to do a nursing course. That's also gone. Imagine thinking I'd like to be a midwife at my local hospital, do some shifts around my children. That is becoming harder and harder to do as more and more smaller hospitals are loosing departments. Then the bigger hopsitals are running on minimal staff, no extra beds etc. It's all a mess. But the staff are amazing to be fair. Apart from the odd rude receptionist.

I’m undecided as it seems to be a massive postcode lottery. I’m under the mental health services and I’ve had outstanding care. 3 months inpatient treatment, a years therapy for 3 hours a week in addition to seeing my CCO once a week plus psychiatrist monthly. I couldn’t afford that privately

@randomchatter @JiminyCricketIsOverForTheSeaon

@xmasfudge clearly lives in Australia and so do I. I can assure you its free at point of access. GP and hospital, and specialists too if you stay public. And for chronic issues there are care pathways that really work in bringing all aspects of your care together and if there are 'gap' specialists you get really excellent rebates.

Last week I had a basically optional emergency surgery. Went into a&E on Wednesday night, they agreed with my request for the surgery (chronic cysts which can be self resolved but keep recurring and I wanted an operation to address that) and put me on the emergency list for the next day. Went into a beautiful modern hospital. Was operated on at 1.30 and went home at 5pm. Not a single dollar requested.

And as mentioned above I've since been to 3 GPs for wound care. 2 of whom I've never even spoken to before. Booked on the day, seen by a doctor and very competent nurses to change a complex dressing. Again, just showed my Medicare card. And I know what it cost as it's all listed on my record as each doctor claims their actual costs from the government. They 'bulk bill' on my behalf, which I think is like the French system, but without me having to pay upfront. Claims are processed virtually immediately anyway. When I've had to pay and claim it back the money appears in my bank within 24hrs.

It's true that its a bit of a tiered service. If you pay you can be seen quicker, but you get some rebate. I go to gynae oncology for follow up monitoring for an old cancer and I get slightly encouraged to go private, but I'm happy to wait and go to the public. And a 'wait' is like a month! Which they think is awful here!

@OoohTheStatsDontLieSuch as which?

Because the countries that have the same issues with obesity are struggling just as much.

Americans are highly dissatisfied with their healthcare and those who have experienced the nhs think it's amazing. Same with Australia.

@stucknoue you don't have to have private cover. If you have a low wage then it's not required. It's never actually required. It's just that there is a tax penalty over a certain income thereshold if you don't have it. So only those that can afford it are economically incentivised to get it. We have to prove we have cover each tax year.

@Newuseroftheweek, I've had colleagues and family members who've moved to Australia in the last few years and their experience is nothing like you describe. They say that it took them moving there to realise how much they took the nhs for granted.

Although, let's not get into how useless private health cover is here anyway. It only covers in hospital costs, excluding the doctor costs! So it generates an industry of expensive hospitals, and clinics where treatment is considered in-hospital treatment. The out of hospital stuff is not covered by private health cover here. It's not what it is in other countries.

@Dontdisturbmenow well, I can't help with their experience! I can only tell you that as a mother of a premmie baby, a cancer survivor, an IVF attempter, and general regular patient that this is my experience. No or minimal costs. My English husband is stunned at how easily he can get scans and treatment.

It's sometimes a jungle. And they will try to push you to private often, but it's all there and all free if you look.

I've a friend who had stage 4 bowel cancer in Melbourne. One of the best cancer hospitals in the world, and never paid a cent for extensive (and successful) treatment.