to think that the NHS is really quite shit and that not everyone who works in it is an underpaid hero?

[Adenosine]

There is a strange British preoccupation with the NHS which I think prevents honest public dialogue about its many shortcomings. At the time it was set up it was innovative, but now there are many other universal healthcare systems most of which are better than the NHS and many of which cost less money.

It's ranked low globally and really quite shit yet few people dare criticise or. AIBU to think that we really need to be far more critical?

Well @Adenosine, are you coming back to follow up on your middle of the UK night posting or have you gathered enough material already?

He was gung go about it which, as I said, I'd never defend. However, he wasn't, as you said, 'the one that started this' (pfi).

And again, I was responding to your point about deaths caused by austerity and deaths in the NHS.

Do we have to wait until 4am tomorrow to get any evidence from Adenosine?

Claim that Canadian health insurance costs the avg Canadian family $11k/year.

Any example of a nation with a similar (or worse) age population pyramid as UK. Like South Korea (where they routinely have 20 hour waits in emergency departments) or Japan (although their system seems to be overburdened too).

Australia? Where you need $50/yr insurance in case of an ambulance ride. Good outcomes for cancer, though.

How about France? Said to be stupendous system, but are we fine to pay €23 to visit a doctor? Germany: Fine as long as we again accept the principle of regular insurance payments for most, up to €1500/month.

I'm up for any of these alternatives, potentially. I just require proof that they (ultimately) deliver as many (or more) benefits for the same or less cost, and have safety nets for the poor. That's not too much to ask, is it?

I do think he started it though, as in this mess, that the tories are now being blamed for. If you disagree, that’s down to you, but it’s a commonly held opinion. I blame Brown for the state of the NHS.

And again, I was responding to your point about deaths caused by austerity and deaths in the NHS
I think we probably just talking at cross purposes. People blame austerity, but the problems in the NHS started long before that. And austerity doesn’t just affect the NHS. So they are. It’s one and the same. Maybe I wasn’t being clear.

*are not one and the same

The NHS is basically a class extermination. Too poor to afford private healthcare = high chance of an avoidable death. But everyone who works in it is underpaid and most are actually good people and good at their jobs merely battling against a system designed to fail. I wouldn’t target people who are doing the best they can in a poor working culture.

The ambulance is free in my state (aus).

Velveteenfruitbowl do you work for the NHS?

@savethecat: in the AUS states where it's free, how is ambulance service funded? Out of state taxation or another mechanism?

I suppose it's easy to forget that RTA victims can be charged by UK ambulances, too.

Try living in America for a year and see if you appreciate it a bit more then

Dp has American health insurance as he is over there working quite a lot of the time. He thinks living in America is great.

In 2015 he got ill and couldn’t face the flight to the US.

He went to the drs multiple times.

He asked if he had Bowel cancer multiple times because that is what his dad had died from and it was the hereditary type of cancer and he had all the symptoms and was dismissed as being scaremongering.

He only got diagnosed when I had to help him into A&E because he couldn’t walk unaided and by that time the cancer had spread.

We have had to pay for all his treatment bar the odd saline drip as he is deemed to be not worth saving.

In the meantime he is back at work paying into a system that he cannot access as they don’t want to know.

If he had got on that flight and seen a doctor in the US he wouldn’t be living under the Terminal prognosis.

It would have been caught 6 months earlier.

The NHS for many treat only symptoms. If they cure anything then that is by luck rather than design.

Friend took many pills for various ailments.

Moved overseas and wasn’t feeling right so paid £75 to see a doctor who sent her for a £140 blood test.

Within the week she had 40 pages of blood test results.

The doctor told her to throw away all the tablets that the NHS doctor had prescribed and said she would be on for life.

Diagnosed her with something that meant a small adjustment to her diet and she is pill free.

It makes you wonder how many people are paying £8 a time for pills they don’t need

If anything has ever been wrong with me or any of my family we have almost always had to pay to get a cure.

I personally have had over my lifetime 11 years of pain for every waking minute of my life for 11 years I was in agony.

Imagine that and then come back and tell me that the NHS is great

@lljkk $50 in Australia is not very much money. It’s like 8-10 coffees for context. But you can get a GP appointment at the very least the day you call up. If your GP is unable to explain something fully they refer you. If they know what you issue is they refer you even if it’s not particularly serious. Health professionals across the board treat you with dignity. And so are they, they are paid an ok amount, not bucketloads but not a piss take like in the NHS. Test result typically arrive the same day if not the next morning. If you need emergency surgery then you get it ASAP instead of waiting weeks. If you are referred for cancer you’ll start your treatment with a week instead of waiting two months to see a specialist etc etc. Comparing the Australian healthcare system to the NHS is like comparing Eton to your a failing state school. It’s laughable.

@EnthusiasmIsDisturbed no, I know a lot of doctors.

Go and live in the ISA then say it's shit. God people like you make my blood boil !

Okay, well I think New Labour inherited an absolutely crumbling NHS from the Tories. Because they were working from the same rule book (neo liberalism), they carried on with what the Tories had started - bringing the private sector into the public sector.

Rich countries can usually get away with running a deficit but the financial crash (New Labour again carrying on what the Tories had started by deregulating the banks, more neo liberalism) meant we got caught out. We didn't have to go so hard with austerity but it has undeniably had a devastating effect on the NHS. Imho

And you haven’t heard these doctors moaning about management

Who are often paid a comfortable salary for doing very little

(That’s not all management)

@lljkk
Do you know, I admit I have no clue! I must look it up. All I know is that I have been in a few and we have never paid.

I agree OP. Recent independent study showed it was ranked 35 in the world. Apparently a lot of this was due to the numbers of people dying from preventable or easily treatable illnesses for example women or babies dying in childbirth from things that other countries would have picked up, or cancers that are caught too late to treat that would have been picked up much quicker and treated in another country. We have an average of something like 350 people per doctor whereas in the rest of Europe its 270 or similar. I also think people have their head in the sand about how its funded. They don't want to pay significantly higher taxes required to fix it, but still believe it should be free at source.

I think if there was an element of co-pay / excess / charge for those without chronic conditions and those that could afford it, it would actually help a lot as people would be less likely to go to the GP for a chat, or A and E for s splinter. Other countries have the same and still have better overall health outcomes than us, for everyone.

I personally know/knew three people who died due to mismanagement and mis or slow diagnosis in the NHS. I suppose it's true that doesn't represent the whole NHS but bad nonetheless.

Well I cant fault it with my Mum. She was diagnosed with ear cancer in April after many tests etc and went on to have an 11 hour operation to remove the cancer from her face,neck,all the ear,tongue,shoulder and Lymph glands. They have been wonderful and have saved her life. Obviously she is still struggling as half her face was removed but Guys are the best!! As well as William Harvey Hospital and Kent and Canterbury Hospital. They are over stretched but under the circumstances so their very best.

Actually it's not ranked low globally, it's ranked 1 by some metrics in fact! It's the best value healthcare scheme in the world, undisputed. Try living elsewhere and you will see how waiting lists and access to treatments etc aren't any better (just different) and the better end services are private eg in Australia. In the USA cancer bankrupts you with insurance due to copays

Hang on, no it's 4.

Like life in general, you will meet nice people vs not so nice people, and the nhs is no different. People tend to think that everyone who works in the nhs are lovely self sacrificing people, but my experience hasn’t been that. I’ve met some lovely doctors/nurses, but likewise I’ve met really awful ones. You only have to experience some of the care workers in our care home system to realise that not all people who choose to go into a caring profession are actually caring people.

It's not perfect, no
I waited 8 years and 50 blood tests for a diagnosis when my blood tests should have been looked into much earlier

However I couldn't afford the treatment that I'm on, and have had
Prem as a baby
Anaphylactic egg allergy
Head injury and fit (ambulance)
More fits, EEG, scans, long hospital stay
Broken ankle
Broken ankle and foot
Pneumonia
More than 50 courses of antibiotics
CBT and counselling
Cholinergic urticaria treatment (derm referral)
Cauda equina - neurosurgeon, 5hr op, rehab, 4 x MRI scans
Hidradenitis supprativa - three operations including plastic surgery
Neutropenia for life - a ££££ drug I inject weekly plus a haematology appointment every 12 weeks

And I'm "healthy"! How would I afford that? I couldn't work when I had cauda equina and was struggling as it was without worrying about medical bills

I really really hate it when people criticize the NHS establishment and putting blame on people they have no clue about, when the main reason why the NHS is falling (as most healthcare systems), is individuals failing to look after themselves.

Obesity, Type 2 diabetes, a number of cancers, all these as a result of people opting for poor lifestyles. If we, as individuals, cared so much about our NHS, we would make much more efforts to look after ourselves, stopped smoking, reduce drinking, eat more healthily, take exercise.

It is oh so much easier to be negligent of our health, but blame the system that we create for its failure.