to think that the NHS is really quite shit and that not everyone who works in it is an underpaid hero?

[Adenosine]

There is a strange British preoccupation with the NHS which I think prevents honest public dialogue about its many shortcomings. At the time it was set up it was innovative, but now there are many other universal healthcare systems most of which are better than the NHS and many of which cost less money.

It's ranked low globally and really quite shit yet few people dare criticise or. AIBU to think that we really need to be far more critical?

I have (unfortunately) had quite a lot of dealing with the NHS when my parents have been ill and subsequently passed away. I have nothing but admiration for most of the front line staff but the NHS communication system is really arse about face and very inefficient.
In an age of email/,computer databases etc, the amount of letters that go here there and everywhere and lost in the post. Just use the phone or send an email, Its not the 1950s!
Gp thought my Ddad needed an urgent referral to social services, so she was going to write. I'm sure dictating a letter is a ridiculous waste of her time (and the medical secretary, and then use paper and ink to print, then someone has to post it etc....)when it would have been just as quick to pick up a phone.
Ddad had an emergency admission to A and E while he was living with end stage cancer. While in A and E they suddenly said nil by mouth we're bringing in the surgeons and going to get him ready for surgery. I had to really fight and make several calls to insist that he was in end stage cancer and could not have any surgery or invasive treatment. There seemed to be no access to any notes or medical history "because it was the weekend".

Totally right @Newuser.

We have ‘good’ private cover through work but have never been able to actually claim for anything we’ve needed. Eg.

• My daughter’s ASD assessment
• my son’s eye gaze communication device

Neither of these are covered by insurance here. In the US they would have been.

So when the NHS lets us down there is now where to turn. The whole system needs a huge overhaul.

The NHS only seems to work to provide emergency healthcare but we need a system that can provide so much more than that.

Those with chronic conditions, autoimmune conditions or neurodevelopmental conditions are being sorely let down by an NHS that cannot cope and doesn’t know how to work effectively cross-discipline. And a private system that is bare bones only. 🤷‍♀️

I work in the nhs and I've only been a patient for the birth of my son and a few days after for suspected blood clot. It was horrendous for labour and postnatal but c-sec staff were brilliant and the doctors and nurses who saw me for suspected blood clot were good too.

My sons been a patient many times and it's hit and miss. He's had a blood sample mixed up by a junior doctor because he had the same first name as another baby who had suspected meningitis, same doctor also was really really bad at putting a cannula in him and kept trying again and again until I had to refuse. Housekeepers on the ward gave him food he was allergic to despite adequate signs on his door and above his bed and me telling them every time they did a menu. They also left him in a hypo for 5 hours without the required hourly obs, he was unconscious when they realised which is when the doctor did the failed cannula attempts, been told my son could of suffered brain damage because of that by the same people who failed to do his obs was hard to swallow. I didn't understand hypos then or what to do he had been crying hysterically for hours whilst the staff watched but I didn't know that was a sign of hypo when he suddenly 'fell asleep' so I went to sleep. They never gave him IV glucose or glucogel in a&e or the ward just a failed attempt at tube feeding which he threw up then they helped me clean him up and left him for 5 hours. I did go to pals about all of that which was hard as I used to work on that ward with those same staff.

We go in a lot because of hypos and we have an emergency regime now which I make sure every staff member follows to the T. You have to be so on it all the time and it shouldn't be like that. We should be able to trust their knowledge and experience.

I think it's important to complain, it's really the only way things change. I don't mean complain to the staff on that day I mean go to pals and let them do it. Some staff are stand offish and easily offended despite the fact it is sometimes life and death mistakes. On my ward now they take complaints very seriously and I'm glad they do.

But I could say the same of the nhs. My experience and that of my family has been fautless. Yet I do appreciate that the organisation as a whole is vastly struggling.

Australia? Where you need $50/yr insurance in case of an ambulance ride. Good outcomes for cancer, though.

It’s free in some states. It used to be funded by a couple of extra dollars on your electricity bill, now at least in QLD it’s paid for by the state.

Having had plenty of experience in both U.K. and Australian health care systems, I’m still baffled as to why the NHS is viewed as untouchable. It’s really not good at all.

Both parties need to agree a 5 - 8 year non partisan plan to drag the NHS into the 21st century and commit to seeing it through. As a starting point, so many processes both in and out of hospital could be handled with improved technology & AI.

A nurse actually told me drs go abroad now as they are treated better. You can't blame them really can you. Not when you see how much pressure they are under

Of course having their student debt written off might have something to do with that. And being paid far better. The NHS training doctors who then go to Australia or New Zealand might partially explain why healthcare is so superior there.

Too many unnecessary ‘managerial’ roles who do not contribute anything useful and lots of waste happening daily within the NHS. Ambulance service too soft.
NHS is great for major illnesses, not so much the other stuff.

We should be able to trust their knowledge and experience
I disagree totally. It is time we take responsibility for elements of our health. It is also our responsibility to educate ourselves and do what we can when we can. Errors will always happen and the best way to reduce them is to reduce the pressure on staff.

Nurses are living the nhs because they can't meet the demands of their profession whilst dealing with patients and members of their family who expect them to do everything for them, even what they can easily do themselves.

There is investment made towards education and more needs to be done, but patients have to accept some of that responsibility.

There is too much protocol driven shite thesedays. It’s quite scary witnessing 111 make an assessment based on flowcharts. What the fuck has medicine come to.

I agree OP - there is a sort of cult about the NHS where pointing out its shortcomings is unacceptable unless it’s a complaint about not enough cash being poured into it. There’s totally also a cult around doctors (all gods obv, and v high earning (£100K+) NHS doctors should definitely be given special tax exemptions on their already very generous pensions...) and nurses (always hardworking, smiling angels and always living on the breadline).
And because it’s “free”, we should be shut up and be grateful.

'@Newuseroftheweek' Thanks! I tend not to like or trust anecdotal evidence... What I read in the Guardian a few months back suggested that Aus, France, Sweden, Ireland there is fee to be paid somewhere along the line by patients. It may be an upfront charge for GP services which you're then able to claw back; some not all tests and examinations order by your GP or maybe its the two tier system you allude to etc. In the UK we're charged for prescriptions only.

I wonder if the Australian healthcare system (or other comparative) could cope with the strain of the UKs population / population density.

Agree.
Unlike primary healthcare in other European countires, GPs in the UK act as gatekeepers to heavily restrict access to expensive secondary healthcare. They do not have the specialist training or experience to know which of the patients they are fobbing off will actually be the ones who will ultimately be diagnosed with serious or life threatening conditions and whose prompt diagnosis would have saved their life. This must be quite stressful for them and lead to poor outcomes for patients.

I am disappointed, but not surprised, by the abusive posters on here who bully those who dare to question the overall quality of care in the NHS. Whilst this attitude exists nothing will improve. We should all apparently be grateful for whatever we get as though the NHS is some sort of benevolent charity not a horrendously expensive behemoth which we all pay for through taxation. It was a fantastic idea in 1948 but needs a huge overhaul.

Another very obvious elephant in the room is the health of a significant proportion of the NHS staff themselves. There are a far larger proportion of obese and morbidly obese frontline staff (eg nurses, auxiliaries) in comparison to other countries' healthcare systems which much be difficult for staff in question, but is certainly not in the interest of patient care. This is another elephant in the room but which shows a reluctance to confront health promotion at even the most basic level. Support could be put in place and frankly staff should be encouraged to recognise that they should be good examples of taking responsibility for their own health as reductions in chronic conditions which can be ameliorated or eliminated with healthy lifestyles eg diabetes, would save the NHS billions.

@randomchatter what tests? I'm curious why I'm missing them! And I've been treated in the NHS so I've got a good comparison. I was horrified by maternity wards in the UK, but I was very impressed by elements of my more complex pregnancy treatment.

It's not as easy to be free here, I know that sounds weird, but they will push you to specialists that charge, but it's possible. It's more like they tend to want to be overly careful, so you get lots of tests and referrals if you want them.
Plenty of people really 100% on Medicare without costs though. Such as me!

My parents spend a fortune on medical stuff, but it's almost become a weird habit to keep chasing and chasing more options to find better answers. So I guess it depends on your requirements and expectations.

I just think if everyone paid £1-£5 a month there would be millions more a year put into the NHS

Isn’t that called NI and people pay a hell of a lot more that £1-5 per month

There is a difference between anecdotal evidence and the lived experiences of people actually in the system in the countries mentioned.

I don't think you are wrong, op. I'm prepared to get flamed for agreeing with you.

I also believe people who choose to have children should pay school fees, to help create a grass roots, holistic education for young children. It would solve so many issues.

There is so much about Britain and British life that needs overhauling.

The UK system is abysmal. It actively encourages and rewards mediocrity. Standards are low imo.

@Newuseroftheweek I don't know which tests - I'd stagger a guess they're not routine blood test! I get this from a Guardian news report and BUPA Australia!

And isn't this the problem. Most people are generally healthy and engage infrequently with healthcare systems beyond the basic, births, kids jabs, flue jabs and the odd broken limb! Yet the NHS is creaking under the number of patients it has to serve. Why do you imagine that the Aus system would serve our numbers and population density without any changes?

I just think if everyone paid £1-£5 a month there would be millions more a year put into the NHS

Brown/Blair increased NIC "to save the NHS" and trebled it's spending. But they didn't bother with cutting waste/inefficiency/poor working practices, so a lot of that money was just wasted.

The NHS is a leaky bucket. The holes need to be fixed first.

Another £1/£5 per person per month wouldn't touch the sides.

Something we often discuss is that people use it very wastefully because it's free. And then the budget is wasted. It could be so much better.

We (DH and I) think that GP surgerys should have a 3 strike system for appointments. If you can't make one, you cancel it. It's that simple.

So, for the first time you don't turn up and don't notify/cancel, that's a "free strike" as things can genuinely happen or people genuinely forget.
If you do it a second, you're put on a "watch list". If you do it a third, you are excluded from making any further appointments with that surgery until you have paid a re-registeration fee of, say £30? So you need to find another surgery or pay to be seen again.

People would suddenly find the courtesy to let the doctors know they weren't coming if they thought they'd have subsequently to pay for their lack of manners.

YANBU. The ‘it’s the best healthcare system in the world’ rhetoric from some, including many politicians, is delusional and makes me feel quite uncomfortable. It’s not the best - it’s not the worst either of course - but there is wilful blindness when it comes to its shortcomings, it’s akin to brainwashing. As you say OP, it’s a very old system that has in many ways not been updated (I think I read not that long ago that it’s one of the few organisations in the world that actually still use beepers ). That’s the UK all over though when you compare it to other countries - we are pretty crap when it comes to updating and modernising (look at our politics and government - still pretty much stuck in the 1700s). For a modern country we are in many ways not modern at all, we seem to love being stuck in the past.

I just think if everyone paid £1-£5 a month there would be millions more a year put into the NHS

I wouldn't be up for that at all. I'm already paying well into 4 figures on tax and NI per month, I certainly don't want to pay more!!

The missed appointments thing - we had hospital appointments (for DD) that we weren't able to attend, but they didn't record that I had cancelled. So the next time we had an appointment, we were berated for not attending. I mentioned I had called to cancel (well before the date) and we were told it was recorded as a no show.
The other thing is booking way too many patients into one apt slot. For certain clinics that my DD and my Ddad went to we NEVER waited less than 45 min after the appointment times, sometimes waiting over 1.5 hours and paying an extortionate amount to park

I've had two appointments in the last two weeks at the hospital (twin pregnancy) and on both occasions, I've waited 1.5hrs. In fairness, all appointments this pregnancy prior to that have been no more than a twenty minute wait.

YANBU.
I love the NHS, I work for the NHS! I believe healthcare should be free.
However, I do disagree that a lot of NHS workers are underpaid. I think the salary is about right for most. The only exception being the salaries of HCAs which should be a lot higher.
Criticising the system is not the same as wanting a US style system.

For a modern country we are in many ways not modern at all, we seem to love being stuck in the past
This is our problem in do many things! We cant get rid of the monarchy, we cant reform the voting system, we won the war, used to own half the world. It's all some desperate harking back to the glory days that didn't exist.