AIBU to think that Mumsnet is becoming increasingly less feminist and that this..

[BertrandRussell]

..is a bad thing?

bertrand you may have missed my response in the replies so far - it’s fast becoming the precursor to another bun fight.

But I would love to guide the conversation back to why you started it in the first place.

I post on FWR. The issue isn't trans per se. There are few people there who would want to invalidate the existence of trans people or deny their rights to present - with respect and without persecution - as whichever sex they choose.

But there's a current urgency about the erosion of women's rights on that board, and if that is stemming from the activists' agenda to stifle all debate when the rights of trans people and women conflict, then that is surely a conversation that's necessary and worth engaging in. The real issue is the very real aggression directed toward women who respectfully question even a small part of trans-ideology: the threats this represents to all women's safety, and vocal threats of violence toward individuals should they object to any of what these people say and on any basis. That is emanating from a very vocal body of activists, and this is what feminists on this board and off it are rightly taking issue with.

'Move aside and be quiet' are not exactly sentiments women have never heard before. And - particularly stemming from an era in which long-overdue progress toward equality was finally being made - some of us are rather tired of it.

Also, as a wider issue, I do see more and more Gen Z women and girls refusing to define themselves as feminists because feminism has become synonymous with transphobia. Of course that's not correct (on any number of levels) and it's desperately worrying but I can understand how they've reached that conclusion and I'm not sure how it can be addressed.

Absolutely! We shouldn’t need to ‘define woman’ every time! That’s the whole point of most of the threads on FWR, and why so many women are up in arms about it. It’s a word with only one true definition, as dictated by biology and absolute scientific fact. Which is why the ideology that says there is no such thing as a woman needs to be fought, resolutely and defiantly, until such a time as people understand wtf is actually going on.

Besides this there are overarching principles that matter hugely to everyone, women and men.

I hope I don’t use it as an insult.

Actually, I'm not sure "insult" was the right word to use. (Told you I wasn't giving my full attention!) It seems to be used to shut down debate, iyswim? In a "you have internal misogyny therefore you are lesser than me and I will not engage until you educate yourself" way.

I honestly don’t want to get sidelined. But have you ever thought why a woman’s name is her father’s- but a man’s name is his own?

Thats the point though. A mans names is also his father's not his mothers, so retaining a father's name isnt really a feminist act, it is itself a result of historical patriarchy. So by definition the act of changing your name or not is a decision based on historical misogyny whichever way you pick.

Definining one as feminist and one as 'you bad feminist you' hardly fits the definition of considering the impact what she says or does has on other women

“ In a "you have internal misogyny therefore you are lesser than me and I will not engage until you educate yourself" way.”
I do try not to do that either! I think my problem is that I am so much older than most other people on her, I have a regrettable tendency towards the pedagogic....

I count any thread where women are supporting and advising each other , even while disagreeing, as feminist.

The ones that become aggressive, not so much. Who ever changed their mind or learned anything from being shouted at?

Well, it’s not a feminist choice! That’s not to say that women can’t make it, of course. Feminists can decide to make non-feminist choices. And conversely, just because a woman makes a choice doesn’t make it a feminist one.

What about when two women get married and one takes the name of the other? Or two men. Why is taking someone else’s name, in a time when it’s perfectly acceptable and common enough not to if you prefer - no one’s forced to do this, it’s a choice - a sexist issue?

“
Definining one as feminist and one as 'you bad feminist you' hardly fits the definition of considering the impact what she says or does has on other women”
I hope I’m not saying “you bad feminist, you”. Just that on this particular occasion the choice you have made is not a feminist one.
I don’t think being a feminist means agreeing with whatever another woman says or does.

Incidentally- if you have lived, loved, worked and sinned as Ms X all your life, it’s certainly your name, not your father’s.

I find the feminism board a bit difficult to read sometimes. I've definitely seen regulars turn on people by completely misrepresenting their posts, and then it comes a bit of a pile on.

Well, it’s not a feminist choice!

But then youve defined a feminist in accordance with your own feminist image.

But it's not a feminist choice! Just because lots of women do things, doesn't make it a feminist choice.

Most feminists do the best they can within the parameters of patriarchy, and most feminists recognise that every single hill cannot be the one they choose to die upon, but really... renaming yourself as your husband is not bloody feminist! Do it if you want, doesn't bother me, but don't do it and claim it as a feminist act.

I dont subscribe to a need to put women "front and centre". Just equal is fine for me. And perhaps i live in a bubble but grew up with two professional working parents, never felt i have any limitation of opportunity etc vs men. I now work in a team led by a woman in a company with plenty of female leadership. I struggle with some feminist views as they seem exaggerated or outdated to me.

I get that a lot of people are really agitated by trans-rights issues. However, what I see a lot is that many of the posts spill out of (essentially petty) twitter spats (e.g. Rachel McKinnon, Adrian Harrop, etc) and the anger spreads into MN. Someone drew a parallel once which I liked. It's like many of the posters are regulars in "Britain's Toughest Boozers"-type pubs. They then go off for a drink in a country village pub, and when the landlord asks what they'd like to drink, they glass the landlord.

I think it's because every thread becomes a trans bashing thread. It's depressing. If you're not part of the anti-trans lobby, then you get called some pretty vile names. Other issues get ignored too. So you can't have a discussion about other feminist topics.

I wish we could move away from the 'equality' thing. It seems increasingly to be used as a way of privileged groups to claim back what they have lost (in their imagination). White people claiming they are losing out because the system apparently favours BAME people for jobs or courses or men claiming they are suffering x, y, z because of feminism. Nowadays these are very often the people crying for 'equality'.

Our society is not equal and anyway different groups have different needs. Feminism is about justice not equality.

I also see myself & friends actually contributing to statistics about women in leadership. Many of us very much on track for the top, and simply dont want it and have happily chosen to ditch it to prioritise time with young kids.

Hellocheeky

Ive simply never experienced a lack of justice as a 34 year old woman in the UK.

What feminist issues have you started threads on, VolcanionSteamArtillery?

I tend to piss people off too much. Or get ignored. Meh. Get me going on how censorship tends to impact first and foremost on Women and how much present good feminist attitude to porn suppresses the development of female sexuality; and regulars are instantly up in arms. I leave a swathe of deletions in my path (not my posts) from indignant women who dont understand that the rules against troll hunting and personal attacks are actually against the rules for feminists also. I like MNHQ too much to cause them the bother of investigating and not deleting
Me. (But then that was when porn was the big topic on FWR not trans). Im actually (thoroughly ignored) on the Bravissimo thread currently.

Also, as a wider issue, I do see more and more Gen Z women and girls refusing to define themselves as feminists because feminism has become synonymous with transphobia. Of course that's not correct (on any number of levels) and it's desperately worrying but I can understand how they've reached that conclusion and I'm not sure how it can be addressed

That’s a very interesting point peachgreen. I think you’re right about that.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

That's fantastic and I'm geniunely delighted for you. (and if that reads snarky it isn't meant to).

But on the day that a third of women under 40 say they've experienced non-consensual slapping, choking or spitting during sex, a wee bit tone deaf maybe?

Bertrand, this is an interesting thread. It suggests that lots of posters are swerving the FWR board because it’s perceived as a single topic forum

I do read FWR sometimes but I'd never post there. The posts seem to largely trans focused and there's also very much an attitude that if you can't take a fair amount of...ahem...robust debate then you don't belong there. I am aware of my limitations (linked to PTSD) and I know I'd not cope well there!

Yes- I think that’s true.

But I was hoping not to focus on the FWR boards, or trans issues. I was thinking more about the attitudes everywhere else. Like, as I said, on RadioAddicts!