AIBU to think that Mumsnet is becoming increasingly less feminist and that this..

[BertrandRussell]

..is a bad thing?

I really want this thread not to be about trans issues.....

Yep, I think that's how many of us feel about many threads!

@BertrandRussell I’m actually sorry I waded in to the trans debate.

Shall we all agree to post a non trans thread on the feminist board?

I don’t often agree with you, Bernard, but definitely do now.

Gender ideology is the most pressing issue for radical feminists at present because if woman = anyone who says they feel like a woman then it becomes impossible to advocate for women's sex based rights. Feminism is for females. TRAs are trying to remove the definition woman = adult human female from law and from life.

I think fairly regularly if you don’t walk in time on the feminist board you don’t get a discussion you get harangued and then (in my case) asked what you are doing posting there if you don’t Have acceptable thoughts. It’s disappointingly rude and unpleasant. I too don’t see putting women centre and to the fore (Sorry some glitch is stopping me scrolling back so can’t quote), as feminist. I think equality is very important to me but I’m not sure that’s what you are promoting?

A very high majority of threads are full of examples of internalised misogyny

WTF even is internalised misogyny?

@JPharm- actually, I think that thread you were on was quite measured and reasonable. A couple of rude posters, I agree. But anyone who is GenderCritical anywhere but here gets such extraordinarily abuse that sometimes they retaliate. And to be fair, there were points you didn’t answer!

But I do hope this is not going to become another trans thread. See you on that other one later?

The thing is you don't want this thread to be about trans issues, but that's the dominating factor on nearly every feminist post and that's what puts so many people off

MN feminism is so narrow that most posters can't be arsed with it.

A feminist is someone who puts women front and centre and considers the impact what she says or does has on other women

That’s not actually what feminist means at all. Not all women believe there is so little equality in our society that it’s necessary to “put women front and centre”. That may be your point of view but to suggest that defines feminism is arrogant to say the least.

Feminism, by definition, is all about equality and the striving to achieve it.

I also object to...”considers the impact what she says or does has on other women”. Considers...and then comes to your pre-approved opinion?

Feminism is not a thing.,..it’s a concept. Concepts need brains and thought processes to conceive them. Yours is not the only point of view - and to assume that it is is the very opposite of what you claim to be standing up for.

There are rather a lot of women on MN in case you hadn’t noticed, and I think you’d struggle to find any that don’t fundamentally believe that equality between the sexes matters & isn’t willing to advocate for that.

Perhaps if you spent less time stalking threads and sneering at people who don’t think the way you do you might find yourself “considering the impact what you say has on other women.

“ WTF even is internalised misogyny?”

Internalised misogyny is when the conditioning that society imposes on women from before birth means they accept behaviour and ways of thinking that perpetuate that misogyny. It’s difficult to describe without sounding patronising!

It’s difficult to describe without sounding patronising!

If only there were a way PPs could look up something they allegedly don’t understand

“ Considers...and then comes to your pre-approved opinion?”
No. It’s the consideration that matters, not the conclusion. It’s all about making choices with open eyes.

I think the demographic has changed from 5ish years ago, mumsnet seemed more liberal when I first started using it.

I don't know if its just because I have dependents to worry about now but society in general seems to have become more conservative (small c) in the last few years.

Day to day my main feminist worries are gender stereotyping of children, and how families balance work/childcare issues. I'd happily chat about either of those things.

Does it matter if its less feminist for the moment? The strapline at the top says 'mumsnet by parents for parents' parents don't need to be feminists, don't even need to be female.

Bertrand Jesus that was balanced and measured?!! I’d hate to think what some of the other threads are like! It’s very hard to answer all the points when the posting ratio is 1:10 against your opinion.

I understand the points raised on there and agree with some of them but it’s such an echo chamber of anti-trans rhetoric that I felt I had to up the anti in my stance.

It’s difficult to describe without sounding patronising!

That's because it is patronising and there's no way to pretty it up.

Telling any woman "If you don't think correctly you are a misogynist" is pretty misogynistic...

WTF even is internalised misogyny?
It can mean two things in reality:

1. When women have been conditioned by society to accept a narrow idea of what it is to be a woman (usually a model of womanhood that keeps women in their place)
2. On MN with some posters "any opinion or action I don't agree with, however well informed the poster may be".

So for example,

1. replies on threads where a man isn't "helping" around the house when both parties work full time (don't get me started on the idea of men "helping"), the woman feels rushed off her feet and he had the nerve to complain she isn't up for sex. Posters say that he's probably really tired from a long day at work and maybe is the OP chilled out, cooked him a special meal etc then he might feel just about relaxed enough to contemplate putting the bins out once a week

1. Discussion about sex and relationships where a poster expresses that different people genuinely do have different sexual tastes and that isn't about tolerating things they dislike for the sake of men. Some posters will decide that because they don't agree with or like a sex act that the woman is clearly being conditioned and oppressed and doesn't know her own likes and dislikes and she needs her eyes opening to the fact that she may think she has made an informed consensual decision, but the truth is some strangers online know her sexual preferences more than her.

Affordable childcare and better maternity pay is a big issue in my feminist agenda, not nearly enough threads on that.

if woman = anyone who says they feel like a woman then it becomes impossible to advocate for women's sex based rights.

By spending so long arguing the definition its doesnt look like FWR are getting onto advocacy.

A feminist is someone who puts women front and centre and considers the impact what she says or does has on other women

Like calling them a handmaiden

The problem with narrowing the focus of the FWR boards is that less people are prepared to engage with them on any level. Therefore more universal basic feminist principles are proliferated as much

yes, I agree. Influx of younger, less educated, less er feminist people. More male apologists. Less sisterhood. More stupidity really. They maybe think they're being tolerant, or the battle is won or the poor menz have enough to put up with or whatever

More abuse apologists - I got told I deserved my violent ex violently attacking me.

But yes I do think the feminist board is dominated with trans threads much more than in RL (and i do know why it's such an important issue and agree with what is said - I got called a terf for wanting to be able to use single sex loos at work) but there are lots of other issues - e.g. around domestic abuse - too that the feminists of MN could focus on

Perhaps you should provide some examples of this tidal wave of “internalised misogyny” rather than climbing aboard the smug vessel.

No. It’s the consideration that matters, not the conclusion. It’s all about making choices with open eyes

Are you sure that’s what you think?

Because I can very clearly remember reading a thread about women taking men’s surnames after marriage.

You said on there that women are free to do that but it’s not “feminist”.

Well, yes it is if it’s a choice made with open eyes. Which very often it is.

That’s what I mean when I say that you (and I do mean you specifically) have unilaterally decided what is or isn’t feminist - so the “consideration” is essentially meaningless.

Aren't!

If only there were a way PPs could look up something they allegedly don’t understand

It's a chat forum, not an exclusive discussion board for fully informed knowledgeable academics. Pardon me for daring to join in whilst doing other shit.