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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think that Mumsnet is becoming increasingly less feminist and that this..

857 replies

BertrandRussell · 29/11/2019 11:33

..is a bad thing?

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Blakes77 · 29/11/2019 18:34

I think FWR is more accessible now too. It used to be VERY academic.
I won't argue that it's all a bit single issue now but tbf I think Bertrand was talking about MN in general rather than FWR?

BowermansNose · 29/11/2019 18:35

Why don't those women just 'identify out of their womanhood' then? Problem solved innit. After all, we are told that biological sex means nothing apparently its all about your 'gender identity' so if those women feel like men then they won't have to sell fish for sex anymore will they?

Think about it! Because the idea that gender identity is unrelated to sex is a non-issue in Africa.

cosima1 · 29/11/2019 18:36

You see it on all kind of threads, but let’s take the frequent “name changing on marriage threads” as an example. So a woman comes in and says she changed her name to her husband’s because that was her choice. First she will be patronised and certain posters will feel the need to explain the significance of the history and implications of name- changing to her, in case she somehow missed that. At some point she will be told that “feminism is a choice, but feminists still make some non-feminist choices” due to the structure of the patriarchy, internalised misogyny etc etc. But what this brand if feminism sometimes fails to grasp is this - a woman who changes her name in 2019 is doing this in a totally different cultural context and consciousness to a woman in 1959 (I’ll use that decade because the phrase “the 1950s are calling!” invariably crops up on every such thread) or even a woman in 1989. A woman in 1959 would indeed have been making a feminist statement by not changing her name. But today, women know there is nothing actually compelling them to change their names in the first place - ie as societies evolve, the significance of what were once “feminist choices” will evolve too.

BowermansNose · 29/11/2019 18:36

Indeed, they sell sex for fish, not fish for sex, indeed! Whoops

Pinkblueberry · 29/11/2019 18:38

Why don't those women just 'identify out of their womanhood' then? Problem solved innit.

Because they don’t identify as male. And even if they did, if they sell sex for food I doubt they’re in a financial or cultural position to do anything about it. Being transgender isn’t about wanting advantages, it’s about how you feel on the inside. There’s more to being a woman than having ‘lady parts’ - but if I woke up with a male body tomorrow I would not be happy. But I also wouldn’t be a man - I would still be me and I’m a woman. I imagine a transgender person pre-op feels like that most days. I’m not transgender, and I always found that pretty simple to understand and grasp...

WorldEndingFire · 29/11/2019 18:41

Depends what you mean; I'm a feminist but I'm appalled by the bigoted bile that poses as feminism on the boards here so much of the time. A shame as there are so many issues that need resolving in the world that we could focus our energies on rather than pearl clutching and being hateful towards others.

PeterRouseTheFleshofMankind · 29/11/2019 18:42

Think about it! Because the idea that gender identity is unrelated to sex is a non-issue in Africa.

Exactly. Because it isn't related, it is a non-issue. All over the world we all know who are the women and who are the men and always have done. Those men who have sex with those women don't ask what their 'gender identity' is before they have sex with them, because they don't need to. They know they are women because of their biology.

So why are women in the UK and other countries being literally forced to believe differently? And potentially being put in danger in the process? It's only in certain societies that there is suddenly all this hand wringing over how you 'define a woman', like we don't all fucking know. Just as women are finally starting to make some headway with their rights......

JPharm · 29/11/2019 18:43

@BertrandRussell I went back, I regret it already!! It’s taken a bizarre big pharma conspiracy turn though!

Long story short: don’t ever think about even suggesting that trans people are actually human and that allowing them to self identify and use a space they feel comfortable in will not bring about the end of women’s rights.

I’ll run and hide now in case they see this!!

BowermansNose · 29/11/2019 18:45

So why are women in the UK and other countries being literally forced to believe differently?

I really don't know what cultural forces are driving it, and I do see there is a problem. My point was that there is a certain hyperbole about the issue that I don't (yet) see warranted.

PeterRouseTheFleshofMankind · 29/11/2019 18:46

Because they don’t identify as male.

What, and if you think they did that would stop men making them have sex to make money?! They are forced into sex because of their biologically female bodies, because they are women. Women are oppressed because of their biology and have been for millenia.

Except that now we are being told by TRAs that 'biology is irrelevant'. That biology is not what makes one a man or a woman. Tell that to those women in Africa.

Leighhalfpennysthigh · 29/11/2019 18:48

I'm a feminist but for me feminism means something different to other women because I am childless and so reproductive rights are not in my agenda, nor are maternity issues. I suppose you could argue that I should support other women for whom it is important, but I don't believe in supporting people just because we share the same reproductive system when I might think they are wrong, or when they insult and belittle women like me.

I also can't get worked up around trans issues or what name a woman uses following marriage. I took my husband's name on marriage but as his mother was an unmarried single parent of an unmarried single mother then it's actually her name (or her grandfather's names whatever).

I support equality for men and women. To me that is the true meaning of feminism - women should not be subject to the ridiculous double standards that exist around sex, attitudes etc. Men are strong. Women are bossy. Men are angry. Women are hysterical. That's wrong and language matters.

I think that boys should have opportunities to go into caring careers and girls encouraged to go into science and technology. I believe in positive discrimination to achieve this because that is fair.

However on here sometimes the ridiculous double standards in situations where a woman is encouraged to snoop on her probably innocent partner, whilst a man is accused of being controlled is hardly a shining example of feminism.

I work in sports physio and frequently get various sports mansplained to me. However, I've also seen women infantilise men and believe that men are less able to parent.

In short there is room for improvement on both sides.

PeterRouseTheFleshofMankind · 29/11/2019 18:48

Long story short: don’t ever think about even suggesting that trans people are actually human and that allowing them to self identify and use a space they feel comfortable in will not bring about the end of women’s rights.

Well if men are being allowed into spaces designed exclusively for women because that's the space they feel 'comfortable in' then surely that is an erosion of women's rights?

Sparklingbrook · 29/11/2019 18:52

I have FWR firmly hidden, and as I have committed terrible crimes such as having my father walk me down the aisle, taking my husband's name and shock, horror having an eternity ring then I wouldn't be allowed in anyway. Grin

SpamChaudFroid · 29/11/2019 18:59

rediscover my femininity, on the FWR boards Grin

Blake77 I can empathise with the invisibility, it practically happened to me overnight. Was quite a revelation. So that is another very real way of women being marginalised.

Baloonphobia · 29/11/2019 19:00

@Jpharm Because of this thread I went and read that thread. It is not a place for discussion. You either agree that all trans women are the enemy and that they don't deserve any rights or you bugger off. And get called disgusting for holding what I thought was a pretty reasonable viewpoint on the issue.

PeterRouseTheFleshofMankind · 29/11/2019 19:05

You either agree that all trans women are the enemy and that they don't deserve any rights or you bugger off.

What rights do you believe that trans people don't currently have? What rights do you believe that women are trying to remove from trans people?

GrammarTeacher · 29/11/2019 19:06

I agree with several posters. If you don't think trans issues are the biggest issue facing women and you don't believe that all men are evil you get attacked and told you are not a feminist.
This is complete nonsense. But then I'll just get told I'm not a feminist again.

BertrandRussell · 29/11/2019 19:06

Have you ever heard anyone on Mumsnet say that transpeople should have no rights at all? Honestly

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MIdgebabe · 29/11/2019 19:08

Allowing transgender people to use whatever space they feel comfortable with does affect woman's rights. It means the transgender person gets to feel comfortable whilst many women ( often those with a background of sexual abuse ) don't get ANY space to feel comfortable in. Like duh.

Why is that ok? Why is suddenly ok again to put women on the bottom of the heap when it comes to participation in society?

Baloonphobia · 29/11/2019 19:08

I'm saying that was the attitude in the thread, I'm not here to discuss the issue itself. I'll pop over to the feminism thread if I ever want to get embroiled in that and feel I need a bit of abuse.

SpamChaudFroid · 29/11/2019 19:08

Long story short: don’t ever think about even suggesting that trans people are actually human and that allowing them to self identify and use a space they feel comfortable in will not bring about the end of women’s rights.

You sound a tiny bit biased there, almost like you might have an agenda.

JacobReesClunge · 29/11/2019 19:08

Because they don’t identify as male.

How do you know none of them do? Would we have any way of knowing if they did, would there be any change to their situation?

BertrandRussell · 29/11/2019 19:10

“ I'm saying that was the attitude in the thread, I'm not here to discuss the issue itself.”

Fair enough. But for the avoidance of doubt. absolutely nobody on that thread said anything of the sort

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Baloonphobia · 29/11/2019 19:11

Apologies, perhaps I used a bit of hyperbole but I just think that anyone presenting an alternative view on the trans issue doesn't get heard out.
I'll leave it there.

BertrandRussell · 29/11/2019 19:11

Anyway- is there any way we could move away from the trans issue on this thread?

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