to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

I noticed when pregnant that all the medical wives had electives, but was too dim to make the connection.

The NHS is a socialist construct. In socialism the provider has precedent over the consumer, who must be a grateful peasant supplicant.

A consultant talked to me about the power of the midwives. The midwives are in charge. So someone with a handful of GCSEs, takes precedent over a highly qualified medic.

The reason for all of this is COST. It is far cheaper to impose natural childbirth on every mother regardless of what is in their best interests.

This comes with a lot of ideology and NCT propaganda . But ultimately it is because it is CHEAP.

1 in 4 British women have birth damage that requires medical intervention. Have you ever looked at the register of PRIVATE ob-gyn consultants in your area???? Look at what they all specialise in! Birth damage repair.

I had 3 natural childbirths only the first with gas and air, the next 2 nothing.

If I had my time again? Elective c section. The damage done from internal tearing and nerve damage is still with me today. I don't think 6 or so hours 'to be a true woman' or whatever the midwives and NCT spouts, should have that much impact.

In the PRIVATE physiotherapy and surgery discussions afterwards, both the physio and the consultant said:

It is all about the amount of collagen your tissues have, that is genetic and nobody can predict that. If you want to find out how your birth will be, ask your mother and your grandmother, that is the clearest indication.

And WHY are we not told this before?

My mother nearly died having me.

My strong instinct was of fear which I tried to articulate and this was dismissed. The evil private system would have heard me, because capitalism is rewarded by taking the consumer seriously.

So someone with a handful of GCSEs,
Midwifery is now a graduate profession.

The NHS is a socialist construct.
With that and your "Ob/Gyn" - I think you must be talking about the American system.

Actually you are wrong, our bodies are meant to be able to give birth without intervention. The problem is that (1) we are bigger, fatter and older and (2) medicalisation means that women are encouraged to lie down which is bad for labour, oh and our thighs etc are weaker now so we cannot physically cope with standing in the best position to give birth

You clearly haven’t worked in healthcare in any developing countries, but as somebody who has, let me tell you that whole paragraph is complete bullshit. Plenty of women and children die in countries where they do not have access to trained obstetric care. Particularly young mothers in their teens giving birth for the first time. Childbirth is still the leading cause of death for women in many countries.

”Midwifery is now a graduate profession.”

Absolutely right, @Peregrina - and even before it became a degree course, midwives were Registered General Nurses with a further 18 months midwifery training on top - and you needed GCSEs and A levels to get into most, if not all Schools of Nursing.

tbf any “ideology at all costs” is fucking crackers, any kind of facism is never going to result in a healthy, happy, well rounded society.

But i don’t think it’s fair to suggest that people shouldn't be proud of something they have achieved just because you didn’t.

i don’t think it’s fair to suggest that people shouldn't be proud of something they have achieved

But they haven’t “achieved” it have they? They just happened to have no complications. It wasn’t due to anything they did.

I’m not “proud” I had no complications from my c-section either, I am grateful I had a straightforward recovery but it wasn’t due to my superior mental state, I was just very lucky to bounce back quickly.

But i don’t think it’s fair to suggest that people shouldn't be proud of something they have achieved just because you didn’t.
but it’s not something they did better than anybody else, or even something that was down to them. they were lucky. all mums brought babies into this world. Amazing! how is completely irrelevant for the achievement. my c-section wasnot down to me, my friends vaginal birth was not down to her either.

I mean, I think we can all agree that is would be gross to skip out of your anomaly scan crowing about how you’d “achieved” a normal scan by positive thinking, and if only other women with chromosomal disorders had worked harder, having your DH post to FB how “proud” he was of you that your child wasn’t disabled.

So why is not having experienced birth injury or fetal distress fine to crow about and tell everyone it was all completely down to little old you? It’s exactly as obnoxious for those of us who did have complications.

I mean, I think we can all agree that is would be gross to skip out of your anomaly scan crowing about how you’d “achieved” a normal scan by positive thinking, and if only other women with chromosomal disorders had worked harder, having your DH post to FB how “proud” he was of you that your child wasn’t disabled.

This really.

Being 'proud' of your natural birth strikes me as similar to being 'proud' of not getting cancer. Both are physiological things, pretty much out of your control. Obviously the latter is an abhorrent thing to say.

Being pleased that the birth worked out well for you and you had a positive experience - absolutely fine.

Yes, I think the attitude that those who do without pain relief have “achieved” more than those who have had pain relief/interventions/cs. For my second I didn’t have anything other than gas and air and I did feel kinda proud at the time but even at the time I knew how irrational that was. For my first (induction as waters gone for over 36 hours, epidural), I had been fitter, done yoga, hypnobirthing. Second I was older, unfit, unprepared - I hadn’t really done anything to be more proud of!

Also Bertrand, why do you say a policy induction at 42 weeks “needs” to be reviewed. The fairly shocking premature cessation of that recent trail re induction at 41 weeks due to amount of baby deaths would indicate if anything that the policy should be revised to 41 weeks but I don’t think that’s what you meant? Obviously individuals should be free to refuse, but I don’t see anything wrong with a general policy based on medical research.

It does take effort though, well did for me compared to induction and epidural. So my feeling after was different. Nothing on how anyone else should feel though.

Not to say that other labours don’t take effort. The ones I hear about that eg induction that goes for days then ends in further intervention amaze me, don’t think I could do that.

It does take effort though

Sure, but those who labour for 24 hours and end up with a c section are putting in the effort too.

X post

And if I’m being brutally honest, I’m not sure that having a straightforward birth, that apparently wasn’t even painful enough to require analgesia, IS much of an achievement. Millions of mothers around the world do that every year. Woop-di-do.

If you’ve been through haemorrhages, tears, forceps/ventouse deliveries, EMCS, prem babies, or any of the other complications listed in this thread, and made it through to the other side in one piece, THAT seems like an achievement to be proud of to me. It’s certainly more physically and emotionally gruelling than a healthy pregnancy and quick straightforward vaginal delivery.

Yep more than mine as I added. I close friend had that I was

I'm proud of all 3 of my labours. I was amazing. My pride doesn't take away from anyone else. It's all about me.

And if somebody gets upset over how I feel about my experience I don't care. They can get upset.

Ha me too

That ha me too was re x post

Although I kind of agree people should feel how they feel without censure (maybe know your audience)

Sashkin but those people should feel proud if they wish at the achievement but you can’t say to someone who did it differently that they can’t and shouldn’t.

I didn’t find contractions that bad but transitions yep that hurt

Sashkin raises an interesting point. I also had remarkably easy recoveries from my c sections (elective one in particular).

Can I/should I be 'proud' of that? Or is that just dickish? I must admit it's never occurred to me to be proud of it before now. Just thankful.

I requested an ELCS as I believed that was best for me.
If I am meant to feel bad about that, I really don't. I actually feel bad for all of those who are pushed into any kind of situation or decision which they are uncomfortable with.
I wish that all decisions were respected, be those decisions regarding a home birth, ELCS or whatever. Because the person who will have to deal with any complications which may ensue (whether form ELCS, VB, home birth, induction, whatever) is that woman only, not the medics, and not those who are judging her for the choices she has made.
And it is completely fine, IMO to want everything as natural as possible, but no-one should be made to feel that they are wrong, or that they've failed if they do not want that.
It drives me nuts when I hear people objecting to ELCS because it isn't natural- so how natural is a hip replacement for instance, but no-one seems to have a problem with people requesting that.

Laurie you feel how you feel that’s the thing.

I felt relief after avoiding a c section when induced, which was a different emotion to after natural birth. Just go with how you feel and don’t let anyone say ‘should’.