to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

This thread is entirely about making “natural” birth a freaky, weird, bonkers, patriarchy driven, woo and even mockable concept. Good to have a little balance.

@BertrandRussell it would be totally fine and unremarkable if @stucknoue was simply sharing her own birth experience and framing it in terms of what happened to her, what she felt and experienced, and the factors in her own decision making. I agree that positive birth experiences can be helpful (which is why I shared my experience about vaginally birthing 9 and 10+ pounders with no problems due to their size).

But framing it as ‘it doesn’t hurt that much’ and ‘c-sections are not to be used if it can be avoided’ and ‘our bodies are meant to do this’ is pretty unhelpful.

Our experiences are just that - our own. Trying to extrapolate them to the general or to inform the choices of others isn’t ok - as dozens and dozens of women on this thread have explained through their own equally valid experiences.

“Our experiences are just that - our own. Trying to extrapolate them to the general or to inform the choices of others isn’t ok “
I agree. But that’s what this thread has done all the way through-even if prefaced by the mealy mouthed “Each to their own of course, but....”

I hate the fact that on a forum intended for mothers and women who want to be mothers, it’s taboo to talk about positive experiences of vaginal childbirth or breastfeeding, but completely fine to share stories about the times it goes wrong. It should be possible to talk about both without judgement. But it isn’t.

Absolutely crackers. Some worry more about the birth experience than the child's safety.

See?

Precious few if any worry more about the birth experience than the baby and their safety. It's almost a crime to talk about a straight forward birth and being able to breastfeed without problems. Or so it seems to me.

@BertrandRussell no, this thread is about making ANY birth a natural birth. vaginal, c-section, instrumental, it doesn’t matter as long as it is in the best interest of everyone involved, and there is no general „best“. Women should make an informed (!) choice. do it without pain relief, or via c-section. whatever you want. but NONE is better than the other, and DON‘T PREACH, DON‘T JUDGE.

it’s taboo to talk about positive experiences of vaginal childbirth or breastfeeding, but completely fine to share stories about the times it goes wrong. It should be possible to talk about both without judgement. But it isn’t

Hear hear

Isn't a poster saying 'Absolutely crackers' judging?

The sad thing is that this thread has started because of a badly run hospital maternity service being allowed to continue to be badly run over 40 years - which is a long time. No one seems to have done anything about it in all that time, which is one of the scandals.

People piled in here to say that its problems are due to the natural birth lobby. They might in part, they might be due to poor quality consultant care, they might be due to chronic underfunding and understaffing - we don't fully know yet.

“ Don’t make YOUR experience the norm!”
This thread is entirely about making “natural” birth a freaky, weird, bonkers, patriarchy driven, woo and even mockable concept. Good to have a little balance

I disagree. stucknoue’s post is just as problematic as the posts mocking women for wanting to avoid intervention/found breastfeeding a positive experience etc.

We should be striving for a forum that is respectful and supportive of other people’s choices, even where they are diametrically opposed to our own.

“ but NONE is better than the other, and DON‘T PREACH, DON‘T JUDGE.”
Absolutely right. So stop calling the choices I made bonkers, woo, patriarchy driven, fetishistic, stupid, anti scientific.....

For me, its all about less preaching, more informing.
Some people have great vaginal
birth experiences. Some not. Some have great c-sections, some not.
What i object is thr preaching
Example 1: local NCT (nobody even remotely qualified): a lady had 2 previous c sections and was pushed towards insisting on a VBAC homebirth because of the “holistic benefits”. Sorry, that is crackers. no idea what happened, i’ve left at that point. Nothing wrong with VBAC, but at home after 2 sections, 20 min drive from hospital?
example 2: vaginal birth will ruin your sexlife (often read in discussion groups). not the case for the vast majority.
Inform, don’t judge, don’t make your experience the rule

“ For me, its all about less preaching, more informing.”
Yeah, well. This thread isn’t doing a very good job, is it? Unless you think the desired outcome is to go back to complete medical management of labour and birth......

People piled in here to say that its problems are due to the natural birth lobby. They might in part, they might be due to poor quality consultant care, they might be due to chronic underfunding and understaffing - we don't fully know yet

The article about it in the Times said there was a culture of natural birth over everything else. I don't know how true that was.

For me the crux of the matter is that women should be given informed choice. Many women feel that they are pushed into having interventions that they didn't really need and it's just the hospital/midwives/consultants protecting their own bottoms and taking no risks. On the other hand you have women saying they want elective c-sections and being accused of being too posh to push and costing the NHS money. Women should be supported to give birth in the way they want unless there is a material risk to them or the baby.

While some people are very demanding and will never be happy so they will moan whatever, there is definitely a culture generally of thinking pregnant women are too thick to make their own decisions and it culminates in telling them what to do when it comes to childbirth. I was reading an interview last week in a different context about the importance of listening - medical staff could learn the same lesson. Listen to your patients and give them advice, but remember the decision is ultimately theirs.

“ local NCT (nobody even remotely qualified): a lady had 2 previous c sections and was pushed towards insisting on a VBAC homebirth because of the “holistic benefits”. Sorry, that is crackers.“
Of course that’s crackers. And, frankly, very hard to believe. Are you sure it isn’t a “Chinese whispers” type situation?

@BertrandRussell i was there (after c-section 1, before c-section 2). definitely not chinese whispers (i wish it was)

I had three vaginal births. One in hospital that wasn’t great, two at home that were better. I’m absolutely terrified of needles, and was more than willing to put up with the pain, rather than have someone stick a needle in my spine! And I totally freaked out at the very idea of a section; I genuinely don’t think I could have coped with someone cutting me open while I was conscious.. Doesn’t mean I judge those who wanted / needed to give birth differently. All women should get the birth they want, wherever that’s possible.

All women should get the birth they want, wherever that’s possible
Exactly. without being judged or belittled, or not believed

I think that is a key issue though wherever possible

In the natural birth groups I'm in their birth plans are military grade precision.

From what language the midwives are allowed to use to what lights are on and so forth.

They place so much pressure and expectation on themselves that any deviation is met with a fight and some distress.

Birth announcements that don't go to plan are headed with a trigger warnings.

For me the crux of the matter is that women should be given informed choice

With none of these blanket policies - "we don't allow people go beyond 40/41/42 weeks" type of statements.

One of my friends was caught out by this - she had a bit of a gap between her children. For the first the policy had been induce at 41 weeks (I think). She got to that stage and innocently asked whether she would be induced. She was told sniffily that 'We don't just induce at 41 weeks." What she didn't know was that the hospital had had a new head obstetrician in that time, and an enthusiast for inductions had been replaced by one with a more wait and see approach.

They place so much pressure and expectation on themselves that any deviation is met with a fight and some distress.
Yes to that as well. the same with breastfeeding. it usually doesn’t work perfectly from the start. its fine to supplement (and it doesn’t have to be with a bottle either). Try, so what works for you, try to keep your mind open.

Re bfding It might be fine for some to supplement, with my first it decreased supply. Second and third much better without this and bf for 20 months. Everyone’s different.

@MarshaBradyo sorry, I wasn’t clear. what i meant is that having to supplement doesn’t mean somebody failed. it just means they supplement. And you are right - it can reduce supply. so again, being properly informed is the difference (i supplemented for my first for weeks with a syringe, slowly reducing amounts- he lost too much weight. my second was fine from the start)

Ah yes I understand Myself2020

I was inexperienced for the first and that advice wasn’t right for me but I still listened. Which was a bit annoying in retrospect. I got better with other two at knowing what was better for me.

“ All women should get the birth they want, wherever that’s possible
Exactly. without being judged or belittled, or not believed”

Which is exactly what I am saying. And which has not happened on this thread.

I hate the fact that on a forum intended for mothers and women who want to be mothers, it’s taboo to talk about positive experiences of vaginal childbirth or breastfeeding, but completely fine to share stories about the times it goes wrong. It should be possible to talk about both without judgement. But it isn’t.

I get that. My experience on Mumsnet is that it’s possible to do so, but to do it sensitively.

That means not saying ‘it hurts less than toothache’ rather than ‘actually I was lucky and didn’t find it too painful’. Or ‘c-sections are be avoided if possible’ rather than ‘I wanted to avoid c sections of possible’.

That also means that even when someone has pissed me off and made you feel they are belittling your own experience, I really try not to defend people coming from my position who are doing exactly the same to other people.

These are sensitive subjects, but it’s possible to discuss them by using a little sensitivity I think. This thread has shown (on both sides frankly) that if sensitivity isn’t employed everyone gets pissed off and offended.