to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

I fucking hate the way they fob off women who wants epidurals.
‘Ooh just wait a bit longer....a bit longer......aaaaand now you are too far gone to get your epidural’.

Childbirth is fucking agony. I felt like I was being ripped in two. So traumatising.

If men gave birth they would be given epidurals on tap and positively encouraged to get them.

Yes, yes, yes....all the yeses. I recognise that you're talking about the patriarchal culture of maternity care in the UK as opposed to the choices of individual pregnant women, also.

Agreed. My first birth, for which I attended NCT classes and was hopeful for a lovely pool experience where I'd 'breathe my baby out' turned out to be a 3 day induction, with epidural, several forceps attempts and an emergency by hand delivery in theatre due to a severe shoulder dystocia. Both baby and I left injured (luckily we've both recovered ok) and I almost bled to death, no exaggeration. Without medical intervention neither of us would be here. I was given no information prior to about the risks of natural birth, or interventions etc. It was a horrible, traumatising experience, not an empowering wonderful one.

Second birth, due to the first, was a medically required ELCS. Even though I had been told I was not to attempt giving birth naturally again due to risks mainly to me but also to baby I was given rafts of information at multiple consultant appointments on the risks of surgery, risks to baby (breathing difficulties etc). It was a lovely calm day, and both baby and I were fine. I recovered easily in comparison to first birth.

Surgery is not without risk and mothers should be fully informed. However natural birth is also risky and the same level of information should be given for both and mothers should be able to choose what happens to their own bodies.

This nonsense about 'your body knows what to do it's what is was designed for' is utter piffle. Mine certainly didn't! And nor did the bodies of all those women who died in childbirth in years gone by (and some who sadly still do!).

The thought that some people consider an ELCS at the easy option, or the cheats way out is ridiculous and naive.

The problem is not midwife led care.

Midwives work tirelessly to ensure the safety of women and babies in a system that is underfunded, short staffed and stretched by increasing complexity pregnancies.

As well as women who want elective cs for choice (and I rightly support that choice!) There is another woman choosing to have a home birth against advice as it's not the safest option.

In most cases in the absence of risk factors a normal birth is safest for mum and baby. And in some cases it's not. What's needed is clear identification of risk and timely intervention when complications develop.

The problem is not ideology or midwives or womens choice - it's the product of system wide failure at every single level. These scandals will keep happening cos they are happening in every trust across every aspect of health care. Whistle blowers are disciplined and lessons not learned. Poor leadership and lack of support for staff.

Zebra I'm glad your experiences led to to that opinion, I really am, but that doesn't reflect my experiences with midwives at all.

My hope for birth is that baby and I both survive without any major injuries and get to leave the hospital in one piece. Whether that ends up being vaginal delivery, caesarean, whatever. That would be my idea of success.

It’s so frustrating.

One thing I hated about being pregnant was the fact that everybody had an opinion on my body and my decisions. It was like being an infant. A pharmacy refused to sell me diarrhoea tablets, despite the fact I made it clear they were for my husband

Unless you are the one giving birth in that moment, you don’t get a say on how it’s done.

I wanted a birth without intervention, but it just wasn’t possible. After over 26 hours with no progression and baby’s heartbeat dropping the decision was made for an EMCS - this along with a continual bleeding that was unexplained. If I hadn’t have had the section (she’d still bloody be in there now), I dread to think. Afterwards a midwife told me it was ‘such a shame’ I had a EMCS, despite the fact I was up and in the shower some 7 hours later. When I asked her why it was a shame, she didn’t really have an answer.

My child and I are here and healthy, does it matter how we got to the same result as a vaginal delivery?

We all need to keep our opinions out of other people’s uteruses!!

I had an elective c-section with my last baby because I’d previously had horrendous, excruciating and traumatic deliveries. I had two labours without pain relief aside from gas and air, I only got to hospital when I was about to give birth. I was not ‘chickening out’ choosing an elective c-section but my God, it was even questioned after I had given birth to him by midwives. I was made to feel ashamed of it, as though I’d copped out even though I’d pushed 10lb+ babies out of my fanny with only gas and air before.

The c-section was the best decision I ever made, I still stand by it now. I agree with PP who said if men gave birth, c-section would be the norm. You shouldn’t have to endure trauma and agonising pain when there are other options available. You also win no medals for a pain relief free birth.

I gave birth twice. I chose not to have any intervention and that was right for me and my babies. If I had needed something different I would have had it.

It is just as stupid to dismiss "natural childbirth" and those that choose it as it is to dismiss "intervention". You could still make your point.

Also not everyone deals with pain in the same way. And many people do choose to have dental treatment without injections.

It's just... ok, so many of us feel that birth can be too medicalised and clinical, and led by men (I generally dislike anything led by men in all honesty, so point taken), but why oh why does the 'midwife/woman led, woman centred' birth ideology need to turn into a fucking batshit mad woo fest? Why go from one extreme to the other?

Absolutely yes. And the reluctance to offer an epidural or any real pain relief. My midwife failed to contact the anaesthetist as requested by the consultant - back to back baby.

@burnagirl my midwife repeatedly tried to convince me to have a home birth. It was my first and I was terrified because obviously anything can happen so I wanted clinical

The issues at Shrewsbury and Telford were WAY beyond midwives being 'woo' though.

“ midwife/woman led, woman centred' birth ideology need to turn into a fucking batshit mad woo fest?”

Could you actually give some examples of “fucking batshit mad woo fest?” Or do you just mean women who want intervention free births if possible and play some music while it’s happening?

God, I couldn't agree more. First baby delivery was disastrous, lucky to both make it out alive, absolute agony. Second baby, undiagnosed (or semi-diagnosed - one midwife noted he seemed the wrong way around then wondered off a couple of days before I went into labour) breach, leading to C-section. Hurrah!!!! When the health visitor came round afterwards she asked me if I was disappointed. I couldn't work out what she was on about, thought she meant about my baby to begin with and truth be told he was a bit funny looking (gorgeous now obviously). When I realised she meant about the C-section I said NO I WAS TOTALLY DELIGHTED. And she looked a bit shocked.

Women are remarkably poorly equipped to safely and easily give birth and people who go on about it being a natural thing are bonkers. A friend of mine had one home birth which went horribly dangerously wrong then had another one - which also went horribly wrong. Both babies and mum thankfully OK but again, bonkers. In my view.

I had loads of intervention and a c section for my sons birth and without it we would have both died - plain and simple. My friends and family have had varying degrees of intervention and natural births. I've also miscarried twice and had to go through labour with out pain relief so I understand both sides to some extent.
Frankly op you sound scared and traumatised by your birth experience. Honestly it sounds like you need counciling to come to terms with it. However you are right that the natural birth movement at all costs is dangerous and intervention saves lives. But women also give birth everyday without much help and are fine (although some do die, but the same can be said for intervention too). There is no right or wrong way to give birth.
All I'll add is that giving birth to my last angel with out pain relief made me feel strong and closer to my baby. I delivered them on my own and it helped me.

I was on the other side of the coin. Midwives were falling over themselves to send me for a section, papers signed and Mum (birth partner) scrubbed up. DS heart had briefly blipped a couple of times (which was probably caused by me moving away from the wireless machine monitoring him to go for a pee) but had been nice and steady for 45 minutes so the consultant put a stop to it. DS was born in just under one hour of active labour (i was induced) with only one stitch and zero other negative effects for either of us. I could have been sent for unnecessary (for us) major surgery and had weeks of healing ahead.
My friends wife had the opposite. They left her in agony for two days, before eventually carrying out an emergency section. Just a horrendous experience all round.
There must be a sensible middle ground between the two?

I'm haven't been pulled down by toxic ideology but the last time I looked my body was made to grow a baby and give birth to one whereas my husband's isn't. I'm not a feminist martyr, surely that's fact?

I think every woman should have the birth they want, whatever that means for them.

@Zebraantelopegiraffe
In most cases in the absence of risk factors a normal birth is safest for mum and baby
It's this kind of definitive statement that gets me cross. You can't say that "normal" birth is generally safer than c-sections as the risk profiles associated with both methods of delivery are different and not directly comparable. In some ways c-sections present less risk to mothers and especially babies, whereas vaginal births are considered less risky in other ways. It's really up to each individual to decide which set of risks they feel most comfortable with in their specific circumstances.

'fucking batshit mad woofest'? Really?

Where is your evidence that for low risk pregnant women midwife led care is less safe than consultant led care? The evidence goes the other way.

It's convenient and easy to blame advocates of physiological birth as it obscures the real scandal in maternity care which is too few midwives, not enough funding, and pouring money into processes like routine induction while not having the resources to support women adequately through the process.

The real misogyny is in not listening and responding to the needs and wants of women giving birth and a dismissive attitude and that applies to women who want a physiological birth or those wanting epidural or caesareans.

I agree with you OP! 100%!! Fwiw I delivered "naturally" with DS1 (the horrific agony certainly did not feel natural, i felt like i was dying) and suffered lots of complications despite the fact on paper I was low-risk - I tore severely, had to be stitched up under general anesthetic, lost 3.5 litres of blood and needed blood transfusions then ended up in HDU with sepsis. The second time I had an elective c section and it was glorious - can highly recommend! And to anyone who thinks a c section recovery is harder, I found it much much easier than recovering from my complicated first birth where I was in pain for months afterwards.

If men gave birth they would be given epidurals on tap and positively encouraged to get them.

I have had babies in 2 other European countries. None of the 'oh you don't need pain relief really' business. Was more like 'Why wouldn't you, do you like to be in pain?'

Op couldn't agree more

I had My wonderful 'natural' for me birth. A dream of a ELCS With as much medical intervention as possible. To me it felt unnatural to even consider any alternative. I must be odd, as when I read threads about women feeling guilty and a 'failure' regarding medical intervention, I think I must be missing THAT gene, as just cannot relate.