to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

I think because it’s such an emotive subject you are attaching too much value on others’ opinions - because someone being proud of themselves isn’t really anything to do with you if you see what I mean.

Why shouldn’t people share their positive birth stories?

but those people should feel proud if they wish at the achievement but you can’t say to someone who did it differently that they can’t and shouldn’t

Maybe I didn’t express myself very well - I’m not saying that nobody should feel proud of going through labour! Just that I don’t think anyone deserves a special prize specifically for not experiencing any complications.

I’m glad if somebody had an uncomplicated labour, particularly if they found it a positive experience, and I have no issue with sharing uncomplicated birth experiences, just with the positioning of one experience of labour above all others as a marker of maternal superiority.

I’m sure nobody who had complications either set out to have them, or would wish them on anybody else. But you are not “lesser” if you’ve had complications - in many cases you’ve been through far more.

“I’m proud of my labour” - totally fine

“I’m so proud of myself for not needing any interventions during labour, I put it all down to hypnobirthing and the fact I worked so hard. Such a massive achievement on my part!” - smug, and wrongheaded.

Why shouldn’t people share their positive birth stories?

I have no problem with people sharing positive birth stories, it's brilliant. One of my colleagues gave birth to two children, sub 45 minute labours both of them, obviously no pain relief or anything, there was no time! I love that story.

Just go with how you feel and don’t let anyone say ‘should’

Well I don't feel anything except thankfulness that I had a quick recovery from a c section. But I wonder that if we prized that as a society, would there be a different narrative around it and would i feel differently?

someone being proud of themselves isn’t really anything to do with you

I question this. To run with the quick recovery from a c section example. If I feel 'proud' of that, is that not implicitly insulting to someone else who didn't have a quick recovery? It's not like I did anything differently to them, just pure dumb luck. But surely feeling 'proud' indicates something they did that justifies that pride?

You can think that was / I was amazing / so hard got through it, whilst also thinking bloody hell how did they do that.

Also you might have a small realisation that when it was very painful it was feel a bit panicky or keep calm time. My mw could see I was starting to figuratively climb the walls but said the right thing. And I calmed down. Which is a mindset thing.

But yes a lot of it you can’t control no matter what you do.

But anyone who thinks you are ‘lesser’ because you had complications is a dick, so you need to field out their opinion anyway!

But in fairness I have a thick skin, so I appreciate my black and white approach isn’t always easy to maintain when you are feeling judged.

I just don’t think you can strip being proud out of it. It’s too personal and emotive.

Sashkin raises an interesting point. I also had remarkably easy recoveries from my c sections (elective one in particular).

I've had two, both emergencies (the first after 75 hours of contractions, 2 hours of pushing and failed forceps). The midwife with number 1 popped her head around the curtain when I first got to the postnatal ward to introduce herself. Because our ante-natal classes had refused to discuss interventions and I'd never had surgery before, I didn't know I was meant to stay in bed and she found me standing up putting my tights on. The look on her face was priceless.

Dh has just had a hernia repair and he says my c-section recoveries made him feel pretty rubbish in comparison because I was up and doing stuff straight away without pain killers, whilst he's limping around in pain. He's 2 weeks out now and when I was 2 weeks pp with dc2 I was pushing the pram on the 3 mile round trip to preschool 5 days a week. There is no way he could do that.

But anyone who thinks you are ‘lesser’ because you had complications is a dick, so you need to field out their opinion anyway!

Well tell that to the poster on p32 who thinks this is all just sour grapes that we failed to achieve as much as her!

Dh has just had a hernia repair My mum had a hernia operation too. If her experience is anything to go by I think doctors play down the length and difficulty of the recovery process. She was expecting to be as right as rain after about two weeks, and it was closer to six months. Not to be compared with an elective c-section with no complications!

The only person in my NCT group to have a c-section had an elective one due to her baby being breach. She was up and about really quickly and given the all clear to drive after 2 weeks. It's emergency c-sections which can be problematic, and some of those could be avoided by letting women have c-sections at an earlier stage - when they ask for them.

It's emergency c-sections which can be problematic

I don't think that's universally true either, though I agree with your other points.

To run with the quick recovery from a c section example. If I feel 'proud' of that, is that not implicitly insulting to someone else who didn't have a quick recovery

It kind of is, isn’t it? Even though it wasn’t said outright, I do feel maybe I just have a low pain tolerance post surgery or didn’t get on with it, or whatever.

I’m glad there’s women who feel good enough after two weeks post Csec. It just wasn’t my experience and I don’t think I’m an outlier. You are told to avoid exercise for at least three months after all!!

Not to be compared with an elective c-section with no complications!

As I said in my post, mine were both emergencies including one at full dilation which was essentially a crash section. They cut me from hip to hip, my uterus tore because it had been contracting for 75 hours, I passed out during and every alarm in theatre was apparently going off which terrified dh. I lost all my waters in the 81 hours they'd been broken before hand which apparently made things "tricky" and they were really worried that I would lose a ton of blood and then dc1 ended up in NICU.

Not exactly an elective with no complications.

“i’m proud of how i went through this” - fine, you should be.
“labour doesn’t hurt that much, i’m proud i found the golden grail and need to spread my wisdom” not fine. you were lucky

The pride thing is an interesting one.

I feel personally very proud of what I achieved at breastfeeding my first, because we had a fucker of a time of it between his reflux and my milk supply and non-existent support. I worked incredibly hard to make it work and fed him for over a year, because breastfeeding was personally important to me. I’m proud of my effort and perseverance because it demonstrably helped me to achieve a personal goal.

I would not dream of saying I was proud of breastfeeding to other mothers who had not all been able to and chose to breastfeed because frankly doing so would make me an insensitive twat - I have no way of knowing what others’ struggles are or how they feel about it. I know I would have been gutted if I hadn’t been able to breastfeed my son, because it was emotionally important to me (why is a much longer thread!) So I want to be sensitive to others.

Doesn’t the same go for birth? You are absolutely entitled to feel proud of the way you handled it (regardless of birth method and outcome). But saying so - particularly in a way that makes it sound like you are proud of the method of birth delivery which is so much out of our control - risks being insensitive to someone else’s disappointment that their birth didn’t measure up to what they’d hoped for.

It doesn’t cost us much to be kind as we share our stories.

TL;DR: let’s share our positive stories, but let’s be sensitive to saying we are proud of things like avoiding interventions which are largely out of our control anyway.

And I realise that there will be many people on the thread who had greater challenges than I did with breastfeeding, and I hope I wasn’t an arsehole just then.

Jesus, @myself2020 said that better with a tenth of the words.

I had a natural birth with ds with gas and air and a pethadine shot. I birthed the way i did and if another woman had an epidural and all the other drugs there is then thats totally fine as its her experience. So long as the mum and baby are well then thats the main thing

Only skimmed the thread but I agree, OP. The ridiculous pressure put on women to give birth 'naturally' is insane and leads to many cases of PND/birth trauma.

It also leads to women doing what my friend did - refusing all scans, pelvic examinations etc and not phoning in when her very slow labour started. She hung on through gritted teeth at home for four days before giving birth on the floor ten minutes before her midwives arrived for the home birth she'd arranged. She admitted she got her husband to phone far too late so there was no chance of the midwives transferring her to hospital. She'd had this happen during her first birth and was willing to risk her second child (or herself) dying to avoid it again, all so she could say she did it naturally and that her Hyponobirthing CD had worked wonders... For all she knew, her child could have had congenital issues that required emergency intervention, given she didn't even have a scan to check . Her right, but I don't get it.

Personally, I had two c sections, one EMCS and one ELCS and am simply relieved that I never had to go through the agonies of labour (though they weren't a picnic either). I don't understand why we are encouraged to compete in this 'best natural mama' contest when it makes zero difference 5 years down the line anyway.

What I have found a bit weird though is people assuming I've judged them where I haven't - I've actually had people say things like 'oh I bet you think I copped out, having a section' - and these are people I don't know very well so no basis for why they would think that (and I don't think that at all, of course, major abdominal surgery is much harder to recover from!). I've found the same with breastfeeding--I fed both of mine into toddlerhood-I don't offer that information unless someone asks, but then they seem to think I'm judging them without me saying anything else.

I get that that's a product of the infernal 'mummy wars' and that people have had negative stuff said to them but it's a bit discombobulating to have people jump to that conclusion when they've asked which hospital I used or when I stopped feeding.

So yeah. Kindness. Assumption of good intentions. All good.

@Zone4flaneur - I know that I have a very bad habit of self-criticism and self-judgement, and I am sure I am not alone in this - I think what you describe sounds very similar. Sometimes I joke that I put myself down to save others the trouble - but I know it is really sad that I am nicer to everyone else than I am to myself.

There is quite a range of views on this thread.

For me, I just have to say that without an Emergency CS in 1967 both me and my DM would have died. I alternated between breech and transverse lie and they couldn't turn me to head down after endless days and hours of trying. I still have the scar on my side to this day, which shows me the urgency that the surgeon had to get me out. I had been starved of oxygen for so long that it's a bloody miracle that I don't have Cerebral Palsy.

My own DS's birth was traumatic. He was born in distress with the cord wrapped round his neck and after aspirating meconium. He was resucitated in the delivery room and taken straight to SCBU. He didn't cry, he made awful choking noises. I didn't get to see him until some hours later after they'd stabilised him and he was on a ventilator and a drip. It was absolutely bloody awful. He's 32 now and I remember it like it was yesterday.

Any birth which results in a healthy baby and healthy DM is a good birth. Do I feel better for having had a 'natural' vaginal delivery? No. If a CS would have saved us that trauma I'd have had one in a heartbeat. It wasn't offered though. And if my DM had been forced to continue with a natural birth we'd both have died in 1967.

Any birth which results in a healthy baby and healthy DM is a good birth.

We need to be careful with sentiments like this by ensuring by healthy we mean mentally healthy as well as physically. So many mother's experiences are diminished because "baby is here now and well, that's all that matters" it isn't all that matters, we must allow women to discuss and process their experience because sometimes it is traumatic.

Yes, totally agree. i didn't mean to diminish that with my post.

@GroupCaptainChablis no I know I was just extending what you wrote, you said healthy DM, some people are just very much "oh well baby is here now" I wonder how many women suffer PTSD as a result of their birth but don't feel able to speak up as they feel pressure to feel grateful?