to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

I think we're losing the point here. It's not natural versus intervention. And to me it really doesn't matter what peoe think. Although I don't think there's much on this thread targeting people who choose not to have any intervention.

The issue is that midwives tend to follow this ideology and as a result theres been many scandals in the nhs where babies have died because necessary intervention did not happen quickly enough. As I said earlier, I can remember my midwife arguing with the consuktant after my failed induction. She insisted I could still do it naturally, the consultant said my cervix, although 9cm dilated was still hard and babies head was in wrong position and was not going to move! I couldn't believe she was still trying to argue for a natural birth, esp as everyone knew that I had wanted a c section as opposed to an induction as I knew in my heart it would fail. That is just an illustration of the irresponsible behaviour created from this idea that natural birth is best. I also got a sense that there was a bet on between the two midwives, as a midwive from another ward the following morning said to me we were seeing who would deliver first! I'm assuming a c section delivery carried out by a consultant wouldn't count

Intervention doesnt happen quick enough in some cases - and in others it happens to quickly.

Failure to intervene is because of a failure to realise that things have gone of course - not because things have gone of course and they are wantonly pursuing a vaginal birth. Failure to act is often due to the misinterpretation of CTG etc.- midwives and doctors. This is a training issue, a staffing issue and a support issue. Eg. Junior midwives without the support of senior staff.

The idea that a midwife thinks - oh this baby is severely distressed (so recognises the deviation from normal) but thinks let's just carry on is madness. All midwives are individual practitioners and I am not saying that has never happened but it isn't the norm. Failure to recognise a problem is much more common than ignoring one.

Sorry but comments further back about elective c sections and demanding good drugs for recovery I couldn't help but laugh.

After an excruciating 4 day labour which was induced with every method. Back to bad contractions due to the devil hormone drip for 12 hours straight. Gas and air. Pethadine. Epidural for forceps which failed an then a c section. I can CATEGORICALLY SAY the c section recovery was the worst pain I've ever felt in my life and you HAVE to get on with things to keep your child alive.

I had to be on paracetamol only to leave the hospital and anything stronger I couldn't breastfeed without risking my baby.

I would choose a vaginal over caesarian any day.

The reason your made to sign and read the complications of a section is because its major surgery. Like any other surgery you would have to sign.

I would do anything and I mean anything to have a vaginal delivery with whatever pain relief I like to get my baby here safely.

Wouldn't wish a c section recovery on my worst enemy!

I'll be having an elective c section. The research actuary shows that theres less risks with an elective rather than a vbac if you've had a c section before.
Also, I'm afraid that the many scandals actually dispute what you say zebra. Do your research

@WBWIFE which just shows how different people are. i found c-section recovery easy, was walking around 4 hours later, out with the buggy 4 days later. completely back to normal after 2 weeks.
and that was after 50 hours labour, being induced etc.
second child - elective c-section - was even easier.

Done it thanks

I couldn't agree more with the OP.

I had to have an ec after getting to 10cm fully dilated and pushing. If I hadn't had the ec I'm pretty sure my DD wouldn't have made it and yet when I went to the NCT catch up about 6 weeks later there was so much competition on the natural birth front I was made to feel like a failure/not strong enough to have had a natural birth. Total madness!

@myself2020 yes I did all those things too. Had to shower myself and empty my own cathertar as hospital was too busy for me. Kicked me out 24 hours later with hospital.

Contributed to my PND massively and I didn't bond with my newborn. Hated newborn stage and it was a 6 month blur really of me just functioning after a traumatic delivery and recovery.

Husband had to go back to work after 5 days as we had already been in hospital for 5 days due to 4 day induction labour and then section. I didn't rest at all. Ended up with an infection after infection in my scar.

Was the pain easier with an elective? Or just didn't feel so beat up like an emergency?

Totally agree.

I am a week from my due date and baby has been measuring above 95 centile since 12 weeks, estimated weight by due date to be over 10lb! Am petrified and really want a elective c section but every time I mention it to midwife/consultant I'm made to feel shameful like I'm "too posh to push" but genuinely scared of her shoulders getting stuck! Can I demand a c section?

Can I demand a c section?

Yes!

Although to reassure I know a lot of people (including me) who have had relatively easily vaginal births with big babies (my issues with first baby weren’t due to his size).

But that’s me. If you want a c-section you should be able to have one without the midwife approving of it or not. She’s not the patient.

I did, because i had polyhydramnios and two young children and i didn't fancy going in to labour on the school run and having to kneel down and stick my bum in the air until the ambulance arrived! (Call me strange)

But be prepared to have umpteen doctors tell you the c-section is a terrible idea and try and talk you out of it.

“ I'm made to feel shameful like I'm "too posh to push" but genuinely scared of her shoulders getting stuck! Can I demand a c section?”
1.Yes.

1. Anazlyse what they are doing/saying to make you feel like that, then you can more easily ignore it.
2. Stand your ground.
3. Be aware that size does not mean you are automatically going to have a difficult vaginal birth.

I agree with Bertrand.

(Sorry couldn't find the post she was referring to, don't understand why poster feels her baby's shoulders will be stuck but she may have history.)

Oh and if (only if) you have the time, energy and inclination, jot down a few notes about what they said and did to make you feel “shameful like I'm "too posh to push" and tell them about it, either in person or in writing. The medical establishment needs to change its approach if this is a coin non experience.

*common

found c-section recovery easy, was walking around 4 hours later, out with the buggy 4 days later. completely back to normal after 2 weeks

We really are. I didn’t feel back to normal for months; walking was so painful! I was literally sobbing as I rounded the hospital corridors it hurt so much.

Also laughing and sneezing felt horrible for weeks, like my stitches were gonna burst (they weren’t, but that’s what it felt like). Lifting and carrying baby was not fun or easy.

My core muscles were shot and had to work very hard to get them strengthened. I still don’t feel the strength and connection I had before (in fairness, I had very strong core muscles to begin with).

Of course, I refused to have any instruments used on me (absolutely NO to forceps) so it was really the only option for me after labour wasn’t progressing in a smooth fashion

Actually you are wrong, our bodies are meant to be able to give birth without intervention. The problem is that (1) we are bigger, fatter and older and (2) medicalisation means that women are encouraged to lie down which is bad for labour, oh and our thighs etc are weaker now so we cannot physically cope with standing in the best position to give birth. The pain is not bad, I've had worst toothache, I had no painkillers no problems. My friend had a c-section and had loads of problems.

How about we stop dictating to women and let us decide, I knew what I was doing, hired an excellent midwife and had a great experience - on the floor below were drs and a fully staffed nicu, because I'm not stupid, things can go wrong - nb this was in the USA where midwives are unusual. C-sections save lives but can cause major complications, not to be used if can be avoided

I'm in the fence about this. Ultimately I think women should be able to have the birth they want. If that's an elective c section so be it. Equally, if a woman wants a hypno water birth then they should be able to have this so long as it doesn't put the baby at risk.

I'm much more concerned about women being given unnecessary early intervention - I personally know of women that have been induced because of their massive babies who then end up labouring for days on end culminating in c section. The baby was 7lb.

That's interesting stucknoue, I wasn't encouraged to lie down during labour, obviously had to sometimes for midwives to check progress but other than that I could be in any position I found comfortable - was on my feet and walking about for most of it. That was forty years ago :-).

C-sections save lives but can cause major complications, not to be used if can be avoided

Oh yes, most people want to avoid a C-section but they are necessary sometimes. I've known a couple of people whose lives and/or the lives of their babies were saved because of that. Most of us can give birth naturally though.

Reading this and another, similar, thread, I feel so sorry for what some people have been through.

If you want no intervention and it works that's great for you. If you want intervention and it's planned and it works that's great for you. If you think you want no intervention and then you need intervention, how great the help is there for you.

Giving birth and hopefully your wonderful, healthy baby will soon be superceeded by no sleep, masses of washing toddler tantrums, eating fads, childcare costs, which school, homework, answering back, social media issues, friendship issues and so on, but poss most scary of all being in the car when your child is learning to drive! Good luck!

The pain is not bad

Oh could people just stop saying that, Yes you might also walk around on 2 broken legs without noticing, does not mean the others are making it all up.

@stucknoue for YOU the pain wasn’t bad. I would rather have have a tooth removed without pain relief than going through labour.
FOR ME c section was harmless - sore muscles, but nothing worth serious painkillers.
Don’t make YOUR experience the norm!

“ Don’t make YOUR experience the norm!”
This thread is entirely about making “natural” birth a freaky, weird, bonkers, patriarchy driven, woo and even mockable concept. Good to have a little balance.

And @stucknoue gives a great example of the problem.

Let’s see - ‘it doesn’t hurt that much’ (all you women who say it does or who are worried about the pain are lying or weak - you just need to toughen up.)

‘Bodies meant to be able to give birth without intervention’ - meant to do so by whom? There’s the design myth again...

C-sections save lives but can cause major complications - ignoring them major complications with vaginal births, particularly ignoring the evidence that an elective c-section may be the least risky option for an older first time mother.

not to be used if can be avoided - yes, silly women wanting to make decisions for themselves based on their own experiences, research and psychology, don’t they understand they should be avoiding c-sections if possible?

How about we stop dictating to women and let us decide, That’s what people have been advocating for the entire thread. Unfortunately your entire post undermines the idea that women should make their own informed, supported choices - including c-sections and other interventions if they feel that’s what’s best for them.