to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

@BertrandRussell these monsters are called the NCT (my oldest was born at 40 weeks, but would have been seriously disabled without c-section- he had to have months og physio as it was)

Once again. Not in my experience- or in the official NCT guidance.

And I’ve been involved with the NCT in one way and another for a lot of years......

Totally agree with OP. Childbirth used to be a major cause of death for women of childbearing age before the advent of modern medicine. I would have been one of the mortality statistics without ready access to a consultant and a crash team.

Apparently if i had done hypnobirthing it would have all been fine (our nct is very earth mother, hippy oriented - baby yoga is apparently also essential for wellbeing)

“ Apparently if i had done hypnobirthing it would have all been fine”
I do hope you complained.

(Baby yoga is fab, though)

NCT is all volunteer based - they can do whatever they please. i just avoided them (which is annoying as that included sling library and nappy library, but that’s what facebook is for)

@EmbarrassedMum1 - we are basically FAR too good at criticising ourselves, aren’t we? It took me years and years to come to terms with the fact that I had ‘failed’ at breastfeeding my dses. Looking back, I can see some of the things that may have led to me having a poor supply, and maybe there were things I could have done to boost my supply, but I didn’t find that information back then, when I needed it.

At the time, though, I was utterly convinced that I had failed - it was all my fault. Other women could do it with ease - so why couldn’t I? I think it contributed to me getting post-natal depression (though I now know I already had clinical depression and probably got PND on top of that).

So your words really resonated with me, and I want you to know that you are not a failure - not in any sense whatsoever. You did exactly what your lovely son needed - that makes you a success.

{{{hugs}}}

@nevergotthehangofthursdays I know right! It's like the book omits a huge section on what happens when things don't go to plan the natural way, for horses or humans lol. I think that is so dangerous, some women just swallow all this info and then feel awful when it doesn't work for them. There's nothing wrong with preparing as if all will go well. But equally you could need intervention, what's wrong with acknowledging that and preparing for the possibility? I personally think childbirth should be treated with respect and caution, not blind faith that all will go perfectly.

@jonas14 but how do you know you weren't just lucky that you had good births? Maybe that would have happened anyway regardless of the hypnobirthing because everything happened to be in the right place physically?

@JassyRadlett oh no the poor cow!! Nature is amazing but also brutal at times.. And that's what I think these hypnobirth books fail to mention!

I cannot imagine a single one who would say anything even remotely negative about someone who had to have an emergency c section at any time-still less at 31 weeks. Who are these monsters??

I’m not sure why you are disbelieving stories from women on this thread who have said this exact thing has happened to them?

And yes I’m sure baby yoga would have been fab, if the teacher hadn’t pityingly told me that “I must not feel like a REAL mother, since I hadn’t actually given birth”.

Please stop minimising this.

Late to the thread but totally agree with you OP. Fed up of other people buying into the 'natural is best' narrative. Same applies to feeding a child- breast or bottle, fed is best. The amount of stigma attached to anything out of the usual 'natural' methods is fucking frustrating.

Totally disagree with the op. I'm no earth mother (senior nhs staff actually) and I'm well versed in medicine having it's time and place- vaccines: amazing things should be compulsary, antibiotics: miracles coated in sugar etc but wanting a natural birth is not something to be criticised. The body IS designed to give birth, and respecting the process and supporting women to do so (if they wish) should be paramount. Granted problems can occur which is when medicine is brilliant, but so much of birth had been taken over by medicine that women often have harm done to them that if they had birthed in the right environment it wouldn't have happened.
Obviously if a women feels safer going for elective surgery, or if there are serious medical concerns then an intervention led birth is the best route. But implying that the women who want this to be the very last course of action are bonkers isn't fair. And with all the horror stories women have no wonder women don't trust their providers to give them the best advice, tailored to them. In America women have to pay to give birth and some have the babies shoved back inside them purely because the doctor isn't in the room- how on earth is that best for mother and baby?!

Also, from personal experience I was appalled at the level of error allowed in measurements that then created labels. In my field 20% error in accuracy of measurements would mean the difference between life or death or permanent disabilities. Yet its perfectly normal in prenatal care and isn't even second checked independently. And they advice then offered to me based on those measurements was wholly inappropriate, but given all the same as I fitted into certain check boxes.
And again from personal experience birth isn't crazy painful. I'm all for pain relief (I even use Emla cream for injections) but i didnt need it. I had a tens machine up until i was fully dilated then went in the water then i used gas and air for the last 5 mins but that was for my leg cramp which was by far the worst pain of the previous 7 hours!

I have to say I agree with OP. The ultimate goal surely has to be a healthy mother and a healthy child??? It is beyond me why a “natural birth” is anything to be desired as a goal in itself or anything to be celebrated or proud of. I had my first two with only gas and air, very painful and was begging for an epidural, but it was “too late” (DCs came very quick).

For my third, I had a complicated pregnancy and asked if a c-section would be safer for the baby, but was told that as a third, my body would know what to do and a vaginal birth would be safer, so went ahead with that. Unfortunately when I came in (at the first sign of contraction), I was told that I was hours away from giving birth and refused even gas and air. I refused to leave and one hour later told midwife the baby was coming. It took me almost 10 min to convince them to examine me and then all hell broke lose as I was about to give birth in the waiting room. I barely got even gas and air for the pushing, but luckily DC was safe. I can categorically say that I have no sense of achievement over my almost completely “natural birth”. I only wish my husband hadn’t been too much of a gentleman to give the midwives a kick up the backside.

I really find the language used about and attitude towards people who want a few interventions as possible on this thread deeply distasteful. But anyway.
People seem to be comparing incredibly badly managed-in some cases incompetently managed- “natural” births with well and competently managed “medicalised ones. Which is a pointless thing to do-incompetence is incompetence. I had competently managed “natural” births which is what I wanted. I had a plan- it worked out the way I wanted it to. Why can’t I be pleased about that?

some have the babies shoved back inside them purely because the doctor isn't in the room

Does this really happen?

Again I think the outdated use of forceps is responsible for the high risk of birth injury in the UK; these should go to Csec like in other developed countries.

And again from personal experience birth isn't crazy painful

Yours might not have been but my contractions, all my back and thighs were pain like I've never experienced before. In comparison my emergency section recoveries just didn't hurt. I had 75 hours of them with dc1, being told it couldn't hurt that much when my first contraction hurt just as much as the last (which was on a drip turned up to full for augmentation of labour). Got out of bed 6 hours after he was delivered and was walking around fully dressed wondering why all the midwives were acting strange. In my personal experience c-section recovery doesn't hurt but that doesn't help all the women in this thread/forum who had awful ones does it.

From Canlolveres to Jonas :

...how do you know you weren't just lucky that you had good births? Maybe that would have happened anyway regardless of the hypnobirthing because everything happened to be in the right place physically?
...........

I do agree with you. I mentioned previously that I had an easy labour and birth but no way am I smug about it; the fact that the experience was good was nothing to do with me being 'special', I was fortunate is all. If I'd had another child it may have been quite different.

@BertrandRussell I feel really strongly people don't get told enough good birth stories either (good as in it went how I expected or planned, everyone was fine, not as in good = no intervention). The idea you're smug or rubbing it in if it went how you wanted is very tedious (the same goes for breastfeeding here actually).

I think 1 born every minute has a lot to answer for in how we see birth and women's agency around it in the UK.

The reason I wanted as few interventions as possible was because I wanted to recover more quickly, and if everything went well there was a good chance of that. I also wanted to avoid the postnatal ward the second time round, which is my own personal version of hell, and avoiding interventions did that. Not because I think it's objectively better or had some kind of superiority complex or secretly had a death wish.

Totally agree. Incredibly traumatic 1st birth, was desperate for intervention but midwives refused to let me see a doctor for hours as i just needed to focus. When I finally saw a doctor I was immediately rushed in for an emcs as my baby was in distress. I ended
up getting an apology from the hospital but it still upsets me when I think about it 10 years on.

I am in no way trying to put down anyone, neither the ones who had very few or no interventions, nor those who needed a lot of interventions. I just don’t understand why it is something that is important at all in hindsight- as long as mother and baby are healthy?

The body IS designed to give birth, and respecting the process and supporting women to do so (if they wish) should be paramount.

No. It really isn’t. It has adapted (incompletely and imperfectly) to give birth to the large-skulled babies through bipedal hips.

Evolution isn’t design. It doesn’t necessarily favour the optimal adaptations.

‘Respecting the process’ rather than the women first and foremost is not ok.

The human body is really not designed to give birth. Cat, dogs etc - yes. humans are badly designed, as illustrated by the high maternal death rates without medical interventions.
everyone can give birth as they want (but should be aware of the risks - birth can be deadly), but preaching about “natural birth” is what we object to.
I’ve had a tooth removed without anaesthetics - labour was 100 times worse than that. some people are lucky - be glad you were, but don’t assume its the same for everyone

The human body has evolved to give birth several times- all it needs to produce evolutionarily is 3 live babies. No design involved at all. The lack of design is so obvious that the God lot had to make up some rubbish about sin to explain the crapness of it all.

Vaginal birth can be great, c/s can be great. Women should get all the facts and be able to decide and be supported in what type of birth they want.

The problem I suppose is:

1. Birth is unpredictable and at the start of labour it's not possible to know if you will have a straight forward, uncomplicated birth so once you know the risk profiles of each option you need to accept a small level of uncertainty.

1. Potential HCP incompetence - a badly managed birth can take the form of either option.

1. Under staffed, over stretched service. - which will result in poorer care and experiences.

1. Lack of funding in postnatal care especially- lack or physios to give basic info and support in recovery from cs and vaginal birth. Lack of midwives to provide support and care on postnatal wards. Kindness and compassion cost nothing - agreeded - but having one midwife to 15 mums and 15 babies is not going to result in a midwife at her best.

Natural birth at any cost is of course crackers. But that doesnt mean that normal birth cant be good. But that also doesnt mean that intervention is bad. Intervention can be amazing! It saves the lives of mums and babies.

All women are amazing - no matter how their baby is born.

I find the judgement about birth experiences both ways absolutely ridiculous. I won't even get started on breast feeding.

Ultimately we do this crap to ourselves. I can honestly say I have never once thought anyone is less of a woman for how she gave birh, whether she has children , whether she wears makeup or any other number of things. I really don't get whybrid we as women insist on creating arbitrary hierarchies about exactly how perfect we are.

Seriously we fight against men doing this crap and then we do it for ourselves. Women are edifferent we are not a homogeneous blob that is identical. Some women had positive non invasite births ...I am genuinely pleased they had a good experience.

Some women (like me ) had brutal emergency births....I am just relI ever my dc are here and I am alive.

Some women. ..something went wrong and they have a hild with disabilities or worse. I applaud them for putting one foot in front of another. They are strong as hell.

Some women would kill just to be pregnant ....I'm in awe of what it must take to keep going or to accept their options.

Some women don't want children. ...fabulous I'll join you in lifting a glass of wine and be happy that you are enjoying your hoice in life.

None of the above affect me unless you are me. So why would I ever have input on others lives.

Let's just butt out of each others experiences and choices.

When people commented (and they did ) on my births I genuinely thought how sad they must be to have to score points at my expense. Then rolled my eyes and moved on.

We would be running the world if we stopped bloody comparing ourselves to each other.