to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

Ruby to answer your question I think we should have more studies so that care can be more unique and they watch women more intently i.e scans although even those can be linked to increased problems.

I'm also aware that they never really tell you that induction increases the risk of still birth to. Ultimately the risks of any of these things are tiny think I read 1in 1400 odd for a stillbirth after 41 weeks.

I do not agree that woman should be forced into anything or made to feel guilty if they make the wrong choice most are just doing what they think it's best with the knowledge they have.

You're able to say such a complacent thing because women in uk usually get to choose any kind of birth they wish. You've got options. Hence the logical conclusion to that is that you also get the extreme of "natural at all costs". In other countries such as Singapore where I just gave birth, I had to pay extra to be in a hospital which would let me have a natural birth plan that was of my own design. Otherwise if I went to the main hospital here where people give birth, you have to labour in one of three approved positions and can't bring your ball or anything, a ton of rules and restrictions. If anything cropped up there was the sense that the intervention would be forced upon you instead of explained so you could make the decision yourself. That was the default birth experience.

Horse births can be utter nightmares I gather, and the bovine equivalent of forceps is a rather interesting piece of engineering that is regularly used.

Oh god trying to get a stuck calf out. Would have loved to have been able to give the poor girls something to help.

Totally off topic: We had one cow growing up who had started out as a poddy and adored my mother. When she was in labour she climbed the verandah stairs to try to find my mum for help.

Cows are ok at going upstairs but bloody awful at going down them. And the poor girl did not have a straightforward birth, halfway through our kitchen door...

@pobble2019 well I was in UK and had a choice of one position and hooked up to catheta, so worse than your Singapore experience. No women do not get to choose. I was stationary for 14 hours and laid down the whole time. I had no choice.

If I hadn’t had intervention I’d have died and so would have DS! Forceps, ventouse then C section. All I’m grateful for is that he and I made it out alive! There was no way he was making it out naturally, neither would I have refused pain meds even if a ‘natural’ birth was possible. Massive medical intervention on DD too; she was fine but I was very poorly. You’ve got to do what you’ve got to do and No-one should make you feel guilty for it.

NB I should have added DS was stuck/ completely wedged!

Couldn’t agree more.

For another perspective, I had an ELCS for no other reason than I felt it was the best choice for me having researched the risk profiles of various options. I did a bit of digging until I found a local hospital with the full NICE guidelines in their policy.

I still fully expected to have a bit of a scrap with them about a pure maternal choice c-section and face comments from midwives about the choice but either I got lucky (and definitely did with my brilliantly respectful consultant) or I give off a big "don't fuck with me" vibe as it was never pushed as a topic beyond the first polite enquiry as to why I'd had a c-section (and the first midwife cautioning that I may have a fight on my hands - nope!)

It was a lovely, calm experience and DS and I were lucky to recover quickly. I'd do it again in a heartbeat but completely support every woman's right to do it her way. Like the OP I would just never want someone to go into it badly informed or to feel like they'd failed if Plan A doesn't pan out.

@Sashkin I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm sure there are some, and I'm sorry you've had people be rude to you. The idea that there's this hysterical tribe of women who have done themselves too much reading and need to be saved from themselves is the one I take issue with.

I do think 121 midwifery care would solve a lot of this. I should have been induced or had a c section with my first - baby stopped growing, calcified placenta well before due date- but the signs were missed, not because of any ideology but because the midwives were too busy and stressed to look at my notes properly.

Incidentally, that birth would fall into the drug free intervention free category even though there was lots of shouting, the big red button being pushed, and not making to a proper labour room. It wasn't exactly whalesong and incense with the lights on about a million Watts and the stirrups.

Zone that’s scary out of interest what are signs? Can you tell without a scan.

I was induced due to age and not over 40 weeks for third. Just blanket policy. How do they know

“ I was induced due to age and not over 40 weeks for third. Just blanket policy.”
That sort of policy needs to be challenged too.....

My second birth was an elective C section six weeks early because my body was attacking my daughter. She was lifted out not breathing, whisked away to be helped and because I was post operative and she was in NICU my entire family met her first. It was traumatic and about as far from the ideal as possible.

But, we lived, she's absolutely not affected, is a perfectly healthy five year old girl with no ill effects. Had I not been monitored or had this intervention she would be dead. So for that reason I see birth as just a process, it's the path to meeting your child and that path should be the safest possible. Because after a period of time all that will matter is that you've got a healthy child and you've come out of it unscathed yourself. Making the whole process mystical is just nonsense in my opinion. We are lucky enough to have medical science make us safer, why would you turn your back on that? Because whilst you might get away with it being textbook you equally might not, and speaking as someone who would have lost their child why would you take that chance?

I'm really grateful for my birth full of intervention. And if anyone tried to shame me for it I'd feel like knocking their block off.

I do feel that women have the right to decide what kind of birth they have. I had my children in the early 1980s, when people were quite keen to get away from the over-medicalised experiences that were in place at that time. I didn’t need pain relief (did lots of practice of breathing techniques beforehand) and that was definitely the right choice for me. But I’m just on here wanting to say one thing. At that time it was pretty standard to have an episiotomy almost as standard, and that certainly helped my babies to come out! Now the practice seems to be to let mums tear naturally and I can’t help thinking that must prolong labour unnecessarily.

I was refused a c-section and ended up needing intervention because exactly what I had said would happen, happened, no apology and an episiotomy was written down as a second degree tear because they couldn't admit to themselves that they were wrong. Without the intervention we wouldn't have survived so no I don't feel like a failure for it but I feel like a failure because I couldn't get the self centred professor to listen to a young women who knew best about what her body was capable of. That doctor had decided that it had to be done naturally because I was young and so many women before me had done it naturally so I think a lot of doctors also need to take into consideration that intervention does not mean failure. Who cares how the babies get here once their safe.

Axeofkindness

My experience thankfully was the mirror of yours, although sadly I don't think this reflects the majority of care out there.

Perhaps I give those looks too

@MarshaBradyo my fundal height measurement hadn't increased. Midwife 1 wanted an additional scan but was overruled by midwife 2. When I got my notes reviewed afterwards the SOM said I'd actually had high BP for ages as well but because my normal BP is very low they hadn't noticed (ie was high for me, not against the population). If I'd had had 121 care, that would have been noticed.

There was a query on whether I'd actually had undetected pre-eclampsia but obviously will never know. Placenta looked veeeery old at 2 weeks early and labour very violent and fast.

Second time round was with a different trust who scanned me all the bloody time and baby 2 was almost 4lb heavier.

I recently re-entered the maternity arena (was requested as a pregnancy/birth partner) after a 30+ year gap. The massive differences I noticed were:

Low staffing levels, lack of basic care, post natal ward nightmare - all as already well documented on MN.

The long set statements from medical professionals before any requested (i.e. insisted upon by mum) intervention or procedure - presumably anti-litigation safeguards they are required to spout.

A bizarre policy of long inductions over 1 to 3 days resulting in knackered mothers either rushed to theatre for emergency CS or ending up with heavily assisted births so then needing to be sent to theatre to be repaired.

Every body and every birth is different, blanket policies don’t work.

@Tessabelle74

In my case it was because an ELCS reduced the risk of stillbirth by half whilst a vaginal delivery gave me a near 20% chance of tearing resulting in faecal incontinence. CS was the obvious choice for me.

As it turned out, DC had the cord wrapped around the neck three times and would almost certainly have been stillborn if I'd attempted a vaginal delivery, according to the surgeon who did the CS.

I fell DEEP into this ideology, and it's taken 4 years to even start to come to terms with the fact I had an emergency csection.

I had all the best intentions and my plan was to give birth in a tub of relaxing warm water, twinkling fairy lights, calming music on low in the back ground, DH rubbing my back and no one screaming push at me.

So when I found myself on an operating table at 31 weeks having my son cut out of me I felt a huge sense of failure. My son was on a table being resuscitate, later was treated for sepsis, jaundice, couldn't feed, couldn't even hold his temperature and spent a month in hospital.

I wouldn't say I'm fully over the experience but I've come to terms with it and don't feel as much a failure anymore as I did then. My son is healthy happy and a clever little soul, I'm proud to be his mummy, I am proud of how he came into this world (or I will feel proud when I fully get over it).

The idea that there's this hysterical tribe of women who have done themselves too much reading and need to be saved from themselves is the one I take issue with

Oh completely - I think the blase, blinkered, “if I had an uncomplicated birth then everyone can” brigade could do with doing a bit more reading, not less! Everyone should be educated as much as possible about pregnancy and childbirth. I read all the green-top guidelines for my antenatal conditions back to back, and knew when they were being deviated from, I’m certainly not suggesting slavish adherence to whatever the midwife tells you.

I was just surprised that mostly-polite disagreement with an ideology was being equated with posts saying women were to blame for their own pregnancy complications and should have “studied more”. And unfortunately, pretending that you can and should avoid stillbirths and birth injuries if you do this course, is a big part of how many private doulas and hypnobirth instructors market themselves, at least in my hippy area of south London 🤷‍♀️.

Have a home waterbirth if you want one, none of my business. But don’t start spouting off and blaming mothers for stillbirths and birth injuries, and wonder why people who have experienced those things bite your head off.

(That’s a collective “you”, not you personally Zone, I know you haven’t done that).

When I got my notes reviewed afterwards the SOM said I'd actually had high BP for ages as well but because my normal BP is very low they hadn't noticed (ie was high for me, not against the population). If I'd had had 121 care, that would have been noticed.

I had a really similar issue with my blood pressure, but also in convincing them about issues with my previous pregnancy and birth. I had one midwife who is insisted on more than one occasion that this was my first pregnancy and would not be told that I distinctly remembered giving birth to the 4 year old who lived in my house.

Probably not that surprising then that they also were not particularly keen on taking into account the heightened (doubled) risk of another extremely long cord and the complications I’d had with my first. I ended up paying for private scans to check cord function and blood flow and presence of knots in the third trimester.

The lack of third trimester scans makes it more difficult for women to get personal risk based care.

Zone that’s scary tg it was ok

Is cost the only reason late scans don’t happen? Does anyone know if it’s other reasons too

There are risks associated with C section to both the mother and baby including recent evidence that C section birth increases the risk of allergy for the baby. However, there are also risks associated with vaginal birth. It is a case of the mother weighing up her respective risks with her midwife / obstetrician and deciding what is best for her and her baby taking into account, but not being totally ruled by, personal preferences. I can't answer either that OP is either being unreasonable or not being unreasonable because it depends on the individual circumstances for each woman. No one should be made to feel inadequate and looking back the fact that I had vaginal births is not on my list of my life achievements. Having produced and nurtured what are now lovely young adults is.

So when I found myself on an operating table at 31 weeks having my son cut out of me I felt a huge sense of failure. My son was on a table being resuscitate, later was treated for sepsis, jaundice, couldn't feed, couldn't even hold his temperature and spent a month in hospital

for you. You’re not a failure, far from it. You allowed the surgery and now you have your son. Far FAR more important that how he was brought into the world, is how good of a parent you are. And you, my dear, sound like a wonderful parent.

I’ve known a lot of frankly bonkers woo merchants in my long life- but I cannot imagine a single one who would say anything even remotely negative about someone who had to have an emergency c section at any time-still less at 31 weeks. Who are these monsters??