to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

And I don't know why anyone would choose abdominal surgery...

Really? Now having looked at the evidence if I was a 38 year old first timer it looks like the most logical option, because the risks associated with both successful vaginal and EMCS (and particularly EMCS) are so much worse for that cohort.

Plus, other people aren’t me, and have different priorities, fears and backgrounds.

It's funny, though, I don't recognise this cohort of 'at any cost' women

I’ve met two of them. Their kids survived but it’s difficult to say whether the issues the kids have now could have been avoided if their parents hadn’t ignored medical advice.

Not one person would listen to me when I said that my birth would be a C section and I didn't want an induction. Not one, no one gave a shit! I asked to speak to a consultant several times and the midwives just kept giving me pessaries for three days. Finally I spoke to a consultant and he just came along and said oh you're 2 cm well burst your waters now and induce you.
And guess fucking what? It didn't work, I had a c section! Well fuck me! What a surprise, I had told my community midwives and the midwives at the hospital that my baby was not in the right position, had not moved from the position all pregnancy and would not move on labour either. I'm still bitter about it, well it has faded quite a bit, but in the early days after childbirth I was thoroughly cheesed off that I was put through that.

@JassyRadlett I was adding to your list, not actually saying it.

Jacques, would you agree that there is a difference between telling somebody who has had no interventions that you disagree with their stance on natural childbirth, and telling somebody who has been through a traumatic childbirth that it is their own fault they/their child was harmed, and they should have "studied harder", or that they caused it themselves by allowing fetal monitoring/having an epidural/allowing an emergency C-section to proceed?

If you had no interventions, nobody is going to tell you that you ought to have had forceps just for fun. But if you had forceps, everybody and their mum is going to queue up to tell you that it's all your own fault you're incontinent now, and your child is in SCBU. Can you really not see the difference?

My whole point is that every woman should be listened to, but to suggest that only women who have interventions are criticised is incorrect. It’s a very straightforward point!

And I don’t think I have disagreed with you.

My point is similarly simple. I have tired of the moaning that the thread is a one-sided bashing of women who have chosen vaginal births or expressed a preference for intervention-free births. It would be nice if it stopped unless people are prepared to actually back up their claims.

It would be lovely to talk about how we could make sure all women are listened to, supported and in fact celebrated for their choices, whatever those choices may be. Here’s hoping.

Eek, @Rubyroost, I’m so sorry!!

Jassy it’s not moaning and claiming your reading is the only way. Stop overriding people’s opinions. That is tiresome. Once you stop then maybe the thread will move on.

As for listening yes go ahead people with experiences. It is interesting.

I agree @JassyRadlett all women should be listened to. At the same time though the medical profession should be responsible too. Eg. If a woman is insisting on a natural birth but needs an emcs, or if a woman is past 42 weeks and is resisting interventions etc.. Its a fine balance surely?

Ruby I'm glad everything was ok for you I think because it is personally emotive for you, you are missing my point I don't want any baby to die. I'm not saying the 42 weeks is wrong in fact for some it might need to be earlier but that women should be given more tailored information

For example I'm hyper mobile there's a drug that my trust likes to give everyone after the birth to encourage the placenta out quickly, I found out purely by chance, some random article on a pregnancy forum that there was a possible link between this drug and increased bleeding in hyper mobility this was during my last pregnancy so I discussed with midwife ( who knew nothing about this study so looked it up) and decided to not have it unless I needed it. However with my other births I was just told you must have this as it reduces your chance of bleeding.

I'm also very aware that even when you make informed decisions something can still go wrong.

I'll say it again women's services generally need more money so that we can all be given the full support we require.

Sashkin

So basically you’re saying because some people criticise women for having interventions, people who are criticised for their own opinions on childbirth should “put up and shut up”.

That’s all a bit race to the bottom for me.

As was I. Not because I was a “nut job” just because i have a very high pain threshold, which I imagine will be taken as an implied criticism. It absolutely isn’t - I just always have had for everything not just labour!

I'm anti pain relief. 2 x emergency sections with no pain relief post theatre whatsoever. Compared to my labour pains, it just didn't hurt to warrant it. However I think it's one thing to say "I didn't need pain relief because it wasn't painful enough" and another entirely to say "You shouldn't need it too". I would imagine I'd (rightly) get a ton of flaming if I tried to tell women post c-section they didn't need pain relief because I didn't. If someone doesn't need/want pain relief, awesome, it's then trying to extrapolate their experiences to everyone else which is problematic surely.

Actually I do feel that it is de trop to actually discuss a positive birth experience because so many people take it as an imagined slight.

However I think it's one thing to say "I didn't need pain relief because it wasn't painful enough" and another entirely to say "You shouldn't need it too"

Absolutely. Fortunately I have never and would never say that!

@Sickoffamilydrama but the fact is how do you know who that women is who is going to have a still birth if left until 42 weeks, or who has a calcified placenta etc. They don't know and so it is safer in my opinion to induce before 42 weeks. I know that some trusts won't induce before 42 weeks despite women requesting induction.

At the same time though the medical profession should be responsible too. Eg. If a woman is insisting on a natural birth but needs an emcs, or if a woman is past 42 weeks and is resisting interventions etc.. Its a fine balance surely?

I was reflecting on this one up thread and... ultimately, no. If a woman is deemed competent, the ultimate choice has to be hers and hers alone.

It may be fucking awful, and tragic, and the result of some very fucked up and dangerous ideologies or total misunderstanding of evidence, but the woman is the patient. It is her choice what medical treatment she accepts, even if the result is catastrophic.

If we start eroding that principle because a woman is pregnant and her choices may harm the foetus it’s a slippery slope way back to ‘doctor/midwife knows what’s best, now hand me those forceps/that scalpel/etc.’

All the medical professionals can do is ensure women are armed with the best, most balanced evidence to aid in their decisions. I think it often falls short in doing this, which can exacerbate the problem.

Ruby just read your update couldn't agree more, about the listening to women.

All my births have been quick with no. 2 I told the midwife, then when I was close to pushing and said to her she just said something along the lines of no all women think that, low and behold she goes out of the room I start pushing and she acts all surprised.

And I don't know why anyone would choose abdominal surgery...

Really? Now having looked at the evidence if I was a 38 year old first timer it looks like the most logical option, because the risks associated with both successful vaginal and EMCS (and particularly EMCS) are so much worse for that cohort.

This could be me. I chose ELCS on no ‘medical’ grounds, but because having read all the stats it was far preferable to me in terms of risk. At 41, with a first and very likely only baby, conceived by ART, I was taking absolutely no chances with the birth. ELCS was the least risky option for my DC, so that’s what I went for. Had I been younger, planning more kids (and having more likelihood of being able to conceive more) etc I may well have chosen a VB. I resent the implication that I must have gone for ELCS on mental health grounds, as has been assumed by several HCPs (not that there is, of course, anything wrong with that). Er, no... i’m just competent at reading and interpreting stats!

@JassyRadlett yeah, I see what you're saying, I just find that hard to comprehend being that there's another life involved.

Absolutely. Fortunately I have never and would never say that!

My mum said it to me!

My mum said it to me!

I’m 100% sure I’m not your mother! I was merely responding to you as you quoted my post

I see what you're saying, I just find that hard to comprehend being that there's another life involved.

I really hate that some (much wanted and loved) babies are lost to it, and I’d be lying if I said I didn’t struggle with it. But ultimately, for me, the principle that, until the baby is actually born and separate from her, the mother is the patient and consent for what is done to her body sits with her is just so fundamental.

I’m 100% sure I’m not your mother! I was merely responding to you as you quoted my post

Oh, I'm 100 percent sure you're not my mother too. I wasn't accusing you of having said it either. It was more a general comment that some people do make that leap. I've seen it first hand.

"we are capable of having the same peaceful labour as cats and horses"

Canelo that is ridiculous isn't it? Whoever wrote that tripe has clearly never read any James Herriot or even seen the live kitten birth threads. Horse births can be utter nightmares I gather, and the bovine equivalent of forceps is a rather interesting piece of engineering that is regularly used.

As you were...