to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

How are people missing the many posts that are rude and dismissive.

By all means say that it shouldn’t be the crux of the thread but it’s every few posts.

@Zone4flaneur I agree. And so the focus is on tribes instead of inadequate care fuelled by sexist tropes.

I am (still) part of a homebirth group, they were really helpful and supportive. I ended up with an emergency c section after starting at home and it was a really positive experience. The whole journey I failed to meet anyone pushing the ‘natural at any costs’ trope. I met mothers who felt they’d ‘failed’ but maybe that’s how some people interpret the information. I truly don’t understand how this is somehow being made to be mothers or women’s fault...

@MarshaBradyo where? Show me them?

Nut job
Anti science
Woo
Batshit
Look at me

Probably some others

By all means say that it shouldn’t be the crux of the thread but it’s every few posts.

We have clearly read the thread very differently. I think if I was a midwife strongly pushing vaginal births I’d feel pretty defensive, and ditto if I was the sort of person who says that you can have a natural birth if you only have the right mental attitude

As a woman who chose no interventions unless absolutely necessary, I feel pretty unattacked. I don’t feel that people pointing out that my way wasn’t the be all and end all, and that it shouldn’t automatically be held up as the goal for all pregnant women, is a slight on me. I made my choice based on a combination of evidence and my own social and psychological factors. Other women thinking that’s not for them isn’t a slight on me or my choices.

For every ‘nuts not to have drugs’ there’s a ‘but it’s saaafer’ or ‘who in their right mind would choose major abdominal surgery’ or ‘pain relief if women really need it.’

Sashkin & Toddler you were missing my point I'm saying for some it will be over medicalising, if you read below I also said I understand why a particular point is picked because no one wants the risk of a stillbirth.

The same study that you referenced also said they could not prove or disprove the watching and waiting wasn't safer but they didn't want to take the risk it wasn't and rightly so when lives are at risk.

Maternal height also makes a difference to gestation times the taller you are the longer you are pregnant for. So does this mean for shorter women they should be induced earlier, I don't know but it would suggest they should be, only research would tell.

Inductions aren't without the risk of stillbirth either, with these kind of situations I believe the woman should be given all the facts like right you are at 41 weeks the chance of stillbirth is x if you have an induction the chance is x but I know instead what does happen is are told your baby will die if you don't have an induction very words someone said to me when I was at 40 + 2, had the baby the next day.

What would be great is if there was more funding for studies, and services so that we could be much more tailored to each individual rather than a one shoe fits all policy.

Jassy I know you don’t feel attacked. Luckily I’m happy with my choices and have no regrets so it’s not really upsetting more than I think it’s wrong. So I want to point that out. Also I think it’s a tired sexist trope as Zone put it.

I agree on some other points. I had pain relief before I needed it, because I wanted it.

On a different birth one HB one induction other a bit mixed, first one inexperienced.

Anyway yes to stronger voices from women whatever the path.

Thing is, birth and pain are so personal and subjective.

For example, at 3 centimetres dilated with my first it felt as though my spine was being torn from my back, this isn’t me exaggerating either, I was nearly blacking out through pain and wasn’t getting a break between contractions. Got pain relief but it kicked in too late (after baby was born)

My friend popped into hospital with decreased movements, they found her to be 8cm dilated (?!) she’d had no pain, they broke her waters and she had her baby an hour later. She said it was painful birthing but contractions were bearable.

My second I had an epidural after 8 hours at the glorious 3cm and it was the best thing ever

It's funny, though, I don't recognise this cohort of 'at any cost' women

I'm glad, but I mentioned upthread that I was literally told to my face by another mother at a baby group that I hadn't really needed a C-section for vasa praevia, and should have just asked for delayed cord clamping instead because "then all the blood in the placenta would have gone into him and it wouldn't have mattered about the vasa praevia". My own friend free-birthed her son, was aware that things were going wrong but refused to seek medical attention despite being begged to by our other friends, and he died. These people do exist.

I agree that women shouldn't be pushed into interventions they don't want, but that is not what the thread is about - it's about people being denied or dissuaded from interventions that would have saved their child's life, or saved them from significant injury, because as a poster upthread said, "they should just do hypnobirthing instead".

OK. I’ve just done a search on the full thread. ‘Batshit’ has been used exactly twice, except when being referred to by posters complaining about the language.

The first was was below - CLEARLY delineating between midwife-led, woman centred and what the poster herself describes as an ‘extreme’ and is explicitly talking about an ideological approach to birth rather than women’s personal choices.

It's just... ok, so many of us feel that birth can be too medicalised and clinical, and led by men (I generally dislike anything led by men in all honesty, so point taken), but why oh why does the 'midwife/woman led, woman centred' birth ideology need to turn into a fucking batshit mad woo fest? Why go from one extreme to the other?

The second was when a poster described the ‘breathe’ poster on the wall that she wanted to take a hammer to. Which, fair enough in the circumstances.

‘Anti-science’ was only used by one poster who used it to describe her particular NCT class and the instructor’s response to her sharing that she would require medical interventions. Other posters have shared experiences they have with those advocating against interventions (rather than for vaginal birth) as not being based in science.

No one has used anti-science to describe women in general choosing a vaginal birth or wishing to avoid interventions.

‘Nut job’ has been used once from a poster saying ‘Think the “no drugs” crew are nut jobs!’ You and I have different interpretations of who the ‘crew’ are but even if it’s me I don’t give it any more weight than any one of the ‘why would anyone want to be cut open?’ comments.

Haven’t done woo- this post is already too long even for me. The ‘look at me’ home birth one was out of order and it’s been called out but again, a single post.

The misrepresentation is getting really tiresome.

Oh come on Jassy I’m just going to disagree on that. You can read the thread how you want. Many others have read it as they do.

It’s not worth re picking over posts.

@Sickoffamikydrama I know one person personally who had a still bruth because of the nhs policy of waiting u til 42 wees to induce. I requested for an induction three days before 42 weeks and ended up having baby by c section at 42 weeks exactly. The consuktant remarked how sticky, calicified and old my placenta was. One of my friends was saying, you can wait you know, you don't have to have an induction. I said I wanted one and didn't want to wait, I'm so glad I didn't wait.

It’s not worth re picking over posts.

Then would you mind awfully stopping the derail complaining about language used in five posts out of 637 and pretending there is a concerted attack on women choosing vaginal and hoping for intervention free births?

Because the evidence doesn’t support it any more than it supports the idea that interventions should be avoided if at all possible.

It’s not a derail. Many have said the same thing.

People have asked where is it so I responded.

If you want to read it your way go for it.

So just to clarify, the response to a post saying

No one is criticising or berating women who gave birth naturally or without pain relief or whatever. No one

Pointing out that actually that isn’t correct is misrepresentation?

Anyway, I’ve spared you the trouble of responding to @Rubyroost’s question of where these apparent attacks occur.

I don't think there's many posts though and mostly they are criticising the ideology, not the individuals.

I have to admit before I went through childbirth I was adamant that I was going to just have gas and air and bit that horrid unnatural epidural thing. Two hours into induction with that nasty drip and hyperventilating trying to suck up gas and air, I had pethidine, epidural, another epidural (top up) and then another and then another. They actuly stopped working to be honest. So I do think there are individuals who are antibpain relief, I think I was one of them.

Not, not bit!

So I do think there are individuals who are antibpain relief, I think I was one of them

As was I. Not because I was a “nut job” just because i have a very high pain threshold, which I imagine will be taken as an implied criticism. It absolutely isn’t - I just always have had for everything not just labour!

Pointing out that actually that isn’t correct is misrepresentation?

I’m not sure I said it was. If I did I’m sorry. That one ‘nutjob’ poster in more than 600 posts has been fertile fodder. There may even been a handful of others speaking intemperately. I mean, they should just smile and not at the ‘our bodies were designed for this!’ and ‘you’re too sensitive’ and ‘if only you’d studied hypnobirthing harder’ posts.

I find it so weird and a little sinister that people would rather spend pages complaining about a handful of posts they feel are portraying them in a poor light, rather than listen to and discuss the issues around the many many more women who were denied or pushed away from medical treatment by some medical professionals who in part appear ideology- or target-driven.

I mean, they should just smile and not at the ‘our bodies were designed for this!’ and ‘you’re too sensitive’ and ‘if only you’d studied hypnobirthing harder’ posts

If misrepresentation is tiresome, trying to plot an agenda that isn’t there is equally so.

My whole point is that every woman should be listened to, but to suggest that only women who have interventions are criticised is incorrect. It’s a very straightforward point!

And I don't know why anyone would choose abdominal surgery...

So I do think there are individuals who are antibpain relief, I think I was one of them.

Oh I was too, for the most part (I was fucking pissed off though when the midwife took my G&A away at the beginning of an hour’s pushing because I’d been sick once and she thought I’d push better without it. She didn’t bother to tell me any of that though. Or ask me...)

But I’d made that decision for myself, and I was lucky it worked out. And given I was incensed about the G&A being taken away, I imagine I wouldn’t have been best pleased if I’d asked for more pain relief and I’d been told no, you don’t need it...

I think we are all far too judgemental of ourselves and each other.

I was all for drug free non-intervention natural birth with my first. Dd1 got stuck so an emergency c section after failed ventouse and forceps was required as her heart rate plummeted.
Midwives were pushing for natural birth and had missed the early warning signs on the fetal heart monitor, MIL noticed.

I tried again for vbac, just Tens at home, 10cm on arrival to hospital. Dd2 also stuck, failed ventouse and another emergency c section.

Both times I laboured first, I did the breathing and thought positive thoughts, they weren't going to get out naturally, shit happens.

Third time no chance of natural birth, placenta grew out of my uterus through the thinner scar left by my previous c sections into my bladder. I was lucky to make it out alive. Placenta accreta occurs in an estimated 1:272 pregnancies and likelihood of adherent placenta increases with each c section. I had the worst kind of accreta placenta percreta, mortality for the mother is estimated at 1:10, baby 1:4.

Three times over me and my children are lucky to be here. Natural birth is risky, c sections are not without risk either at the time or from the associated risks in future pregnancies. There is no perfect way.

What we need is more staff and resources.
Midwives who can actually spend the time with women to make sure that they are cared for and correctly monitored and that in an emergency an obstetrician/anaesthetist and an operating theatre will be available as quickly as possible if needed.