to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

I just want to know why it’s OK to be so rude and dismissive of robes who decide they want to try and give birth with as few interventions as possible. Because this thread has certainly highlighted which group is the most outspoken and judgemental...

Say what? The Shrewsbury, Morecambe and North Staffs scandals were entirely created because women were having low intervention births forced upon them, resulting in life changing injuries and death. Many people on this thread have noted both medical professionals and non-medical friends/colleagues commenting that their epidural/c-section births weren’t “real” births. What a bloody simplistic and fundamentally misogynistic way of looking at things.

YANBU but some people are THAT insecure they will take every achievement and turn it into the Oscar's for One.

I can't bear oneupmanship. Especially on topics like this.

sensitive post

40+ years ago my Dad was ordered to go in to the room and tell my Mum to stop making a fuss as the machine said she wasn't in labour (she was high risk due to a previous stillbirth at 27 weeks) Less than an hour later she was holding my sister.

There was also the mum that walked out of the ward and took her life.

Things were not always better. Though on a lighter side she does tell us about the doctor who refused to use a (traditional) Doppler and would just press his ear against the tummy.

I highly recommend hypnobirthing. I’ve had two births, studied furiously beforehand for both and was very prepared. I paid for lessons and it was worth every penny. Amazing water birthing experiences in a midwife led unit, a bit of gas and air the first birth and not much the second. I didn’t let anyone prod me or even check how dilated I was, just went with the flow. All I can say is do your homework, don’t listen to all the horror stories. I’m sorry, but it is possible. I know lots of women who did this, they just don’t shout as loudly as women who have had horrendous experiences.

I don't feel like I gave birth though, it's just not grammatically correct, seeing as I had him taken out of me

A c section is major surgery but a vaginal birth is also a 'major occurrence!' I think when comparing the two people forget that because it's 'something that is supposed to be natural occurring'.

In terms of recovery I think they can be so similar. I had 2 sections, both of which I was up the next day showered and at home within 48 hours. I met others who had a vaginal births with birth injuries, and longer recoveries. It really isn't that different!

I highly recommend hypnobirthing. I’ve had two births, studied furiously beforehand for both and was very prepared.

BINGO! I think we’ve found the birth story experience version of telling infertile women “just relax! You’ll get pregnant once you stop stressing about it!”

Don’t worry all you ladies who had traumatic births, you just didn’t STUDY ENOUGH.

As a 38w pregnant first-time-mum, I find this thread very disturbing and surely everything Mumsnet should not be.

I should stress the "regardless of circumstances" part - obviously nobody wants interventions that are unnecessary. But there are plenty of keyboard warriors (mostly on Facebook and IRL, but there are a couple on here, or used to be 2-3yrs ago anyway), who insist that in my place they would have done yoga to move DS into a stable lie, then hypnobirthed until their pelvis allowed his head through. And they insist that nothing would have induced them to have any intervention under any circumstances, even in the event of fetal distress, because nature would have found a way.

Of course, they were never in that position, they had a quick and uncomplicated delivery due solely to their superior mental state, and nothing to do with bloody good luck.

@Jonas14 there's a lot about hypnobirthing and a lot of people recommend it, but believe me no amount of hyonobirthing would have helped women with horrendous birth experiences. It's not a competition about anyone shouting louder than the other. I think the major issue as @jcurve has already mentioned, is that midwives in quite a few nhs trusts are insisting they can handle these natural births, firmly believe in it and don't call the consultants in quickly enough and then babies die because they don't have a c section quickly enough etc. I've read quite a few incidents like this. Indeed my midwife was arguing with the consultant when they examined me and said that even though I was 9cm dilated my cervix was still hard and the babies head was nit going to come out as he was in the wrong position. She said I needed an emergency c section, but the midwife was still saying i hadn't got far to go! 🙄

DS's head was 90th centile and I'm a 5ft woman

I am slightly taller at 5ft 2. DS's head was on the 95th percentile. I went into labour at 36+3, and had him the next day. It was difficult enough then, it may have been different if I had gone another 3 weeks. His head wasn't actually the biggest but my girls were 39 weeks plus. I was also flat on my back with a monitor on, so not great.

I’m sorry, but it is possible.

Ok, so let me get this straight. Are you saying that other women could have avoided intervention if they’d done hypnobirthing?

I don't feel like I gave birth though

Me neither but I still don't like to be told I didn't. It's one thing to think it yourself but another to have a pile of other women who probably didn't have the same experiences telling you failed. I apparently I told the anesthetist that I'd failed motherhood and didn't deserve a baby just before I passed out.

Oh hey, while I was typing Jonas appeared to prove my point! If only I'd worked a bit harder, eh? That vasa praevia would have gone away with a bit more positive thinking! How silly of me to allow myself to be prodded and get it diagnosed, if only I'd let myself go into labour unaware of it!

Haha @jcurve I actually did read about hypnobirthing, so I did study enough! Sadly that went to pot after being given that awful oxytocin drip and 5 epidurals later an emcs.

It's funny, though, I don't recognise this cohort of 'at any cost' women. I'm still on a home birth support group on Facebook, which is obvoiously self-selecting women who are keen on lower intervention, and I've never seen anyone say 'at any cost'. Lots of those women go on to have interventions and are largely positive about it, usually because they've been very engaged in decision making about their own care. I've seen lots of people trying to work out their own personal risk profiles, people sharing their experiences and exploring options.

I've got a strong suspicion the 'hysterical' diehard homebirther is largely a sexist trope.

I can't comment on midwifery cultures. But birthing women? We need to get over the idea that women don't balance evidence and make informed decisions. That's why we get such shit treatment.

Surely the point about hypno birthing is that stress hormones interfere with labour, and anything that promotes relaxation will help? For some people it is a real boon, but is not a guarantee of anything, and shouldn’t be promoted as such.

It can’t fix a brow presentation, or a cord round the neck, etc. It can, however, promote confidence in the mother, helping her remain calm, even if complications occur. It can also reduce pain. It’s not a magic wand, though, and shouldn’t be promoted as such. No woman should feel a failure if she needs pain relief or a c-section, just because she did hypnobirthing. It’s just one tool in the box, albeit often a very useful one.

Haha @Jonas14 what a popular Post. 🙄

@Dinosauratemydaffodils, I know, I get that. I just don't really give a shit what other people think. After the birth I went through, I feel like I deserve a medal, I think I had a mild form of ptsd afterwards.

Zone I agree with this
I've got a strong suspicion the 'hysterical' diehard homebirther is largely a sexist trope. and the rest of your post.

I don’t know any one who would say at any cost.

I’ve never understood it. There’s a reason why so many babies and mothers died in childbirth years ago. I would have quite liked a water birth with gas and air perhaps (as long as that was all we needed). We didn’t we needed just about every intervention known to man. Did I care or feel cheated? Did I hell, I was ecstatic that both myself and my son survived and were healthy.

I just want to know why it’s OK to be so rude and dismissive of robes who decide they want to try and give birth with as few interventions as possible. Because this thread has certainly highlighted which group is the most outspoken and judgemental...

I’m one of the ‘give birth with as few interventions as possible’ crowd - 9 and 10 pounders, gas and air - but I don’t feel judged by this thread at all. It seems bizarre to me that people have become so incredibly defensive and seem to be shutting their ears to women’s crappy experiences at the hands of overzealous natural birth ideologies rather than something more individual woman-centred simply because someone suggested I was mad for not taking the drugs.

I have however been pretty shocked by some posters for whom I generally have a lot of respect absolutely dismissing the experiences recounted by women of both their care and the way they have been treated as a result of their care. And the twisting of posts that were against a natural-birth-promoting ideology to present them as being against vaginal births and women’s ability to choose full stop.

I’m quite passionate about the issue, certainly, given the cavalier risk-taking with one of my children and the near death of my best friend - the latter because the midwives overseeing her care felt it best to pursue a vaginal birth despite it directly disregarding her agreed care plan.

We have got to get out of our entrenched ‘my way is best’ and getting defensive about our own choices as being ‘better’ than someone else’s, which is what this thread has become on occasion.

We need to fight for all women to get a supported, unjudged, informed and unpressured choice, free of tired consultant v midwife or interventions v none battles.

We need to fight for all women to get a supported, unjudged, informed and unpressured choice, free of tired consultant v midwife or interventions v none battles.

Amen to that. In fact, your whole post Jassy.

I did have a natural birth plan with hypnobirthing and despite using the technique which I found very useful to manage the pain, it would not have prevented an artery rupture and fetal distress. That was purely bad luck. Surely it strengthens the case of hypnobirthing as a way of managing pain that I managed a artery rupture with no other pain relief for a good few hours.

To suggest otherwise is misleading and proves my point about people becoming dogmatic and intrenched in their positions and trying to shame other women.

@JassyRadlett well said. I can't see where women have been rude and dismissive to women who give birth naturally and with fe interventions. I thought I may have missed some crucial posts.

By all means that's ideal if you are lucky to have that kind of birth and I'm happy for women who can do so. However, there's been so many deaths of babies because midwives are hanging in to this ideal birth and bit getting babies out in time by calling consuktant etc.

Not, not bit!