to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

Ive come back to this and can see some really interesting comments, I have two points I want to add:
I firmly believe that 1 of the reasons patriarchy exists is because of the limited role that the human male has in reproduction, and women need to recognise that their role as a human female is much more than ‘baby incubator’.

I posted this on another thread:

I was treated nicely as an NHS patient in non maternity services.

Day case removal of wisdom tooth. Friendly nurses, given oramorph in recovery - compared to women getting paracetamol after a Caesarian! Nurse made me tea and brought me a yogurt. Wheeled me to the loo in case I felt faint! Given codeine to take home with me.

Colonoscopy under sedation so I didn’t feel much or remember it. Very nice nurses. They made me tea and toast after.

It didn’t cost anything for those to provide a reassuring word or gesture or to be friendly and caring.

Yet maternity services can’t provide clean bathrooms, nice staff, tea or toast when needed. Or adequate pain relief.

🤷🏻‍♀️

And now women are being discharged 24 hours after a Caesarian! Imagine a man being sent home a day after major abdominal surgery with paracetamol for the pain

@Biggobyboo that made me laugh. After I had a c section. I had dropped some things on the floor and rather than risk picking them up I was waiting for my boyfriend to arrive. I had never had that kind of surgery before and assumed I could pop stitches etc. Lovely midwife came in, why are you not picking up things, you need to do your housekeeping. I explained the above. This was met with what do you think single mothers do who don't have a supportive partner like you. I proceeded to pick the stuff up. Then later in my maternity notes I saw they had written that I was not competing housekeeping. 🙄😂

Whatever the method of birth, if men were doing it you can bet the medical profession would have found a way to balance adequate pain relief with safety by now.

If a friend of mine went in to have a vaginal birth but ended up with a c section I would probably ask what had happened - because it was not what she had planned. That wouldn’t be me being negative-it would be me knowing she might have a story she wanted to tell.

And even at my most sensitive, I wouldn't have an issue with that. It's the commiserations, the asking "did you stay mobile" (yes as best I as I could with a baby on my sciatic nerve so my legs collapsed with every contraction), "did you change position", "did you refuse x intervention", "you should have demanded more time" (after 2 hours of pushing did bugger all apart from distress dc1) and the assumption that you'll be trying vaginal again with dc2 because "of course you'd want to push a baby out" or "you'd want to give birth this time" that's problematic.

But I suppose I’m wondering if sometimes* it’s just ordinary language that’s being turned into something negative.^

Probably. But you can’t dismiss the overwhelmingly negative narrative around c-sections as a factor in how people react to what might be quite innocuous comments without that narrative. And then it’s a question of whether we dismiss women for being too sensitive, or we challenge the culture and are more sensitive with our language.

I’ve definitely seen evidence of it through giving birth twice in the last ten years. I’ve seen the catastrophic physical and mental impacts of a ‘natural if at all possible’ ethos in a hospital rather than ‘natural where it’s best.’

If I, as a ‘successful’ vaginal birther can see that there’s a pretty toxic negative narrative around interventions alongside clear evidence that women are being denied the ability to always make timely, informed decisions for themselves, then surely it must feel a lot more negative for those who had the interventions, say they’ve felt a failure, etc.

I had a natural birth and no pain relief but not out of choice, I was in slow labour for 4 days and when It was active I was told to stay at home if I could hold down a conversation and my contractions werent regular, after 4 and half days I took myself into the ward and I was 10cms dilated they didn't know how long for so was offered gas and air for a while took them 2 hours to pop my waters as they were busy then left me pushing for 4 hours but baby was stuck I was exhausted, then was prepped for a C section but they asked if they could try forceps and I agreed as I would have missed the birth of my daughter being out to sleep for the section she came out eventually then I had a post partum hemmorhage, which almost killed me and required 4 blood transfusions, there after care was horrendous kept forcing me to keep going with breastfeeding but not offering help or assistance as I couldnt move or sit up properly and was attached to heart monitors I was in intensive care for 6 days and they wouldn't give me a breast pump or let me bring my own in, I asked for pethadrin I think it's called during the labour but it never happened so wish I had been able to have something the outcome would have been way less stressful however the pain side of things wasn't too bad but I have a very high pain tolerance lol but not everybody does

I agree OP. Utter bollocks. The culture is that your body knows best and those bodies that don’t are a shitting failure. Fuck right off! First child = pre-eclampsia & EMCS. Did I fail? I think ruddy not. Had I died and my baby died (which was a close call) THAT would have been a failure. Second baby = GD. What a ball ache that was. So with both my children I had serious health issues because of pregnancy. Seems my body wasn’t designed to have kids fully eh? But I didn’t fail because I delivered two, healthy, clever kids. Anyone says I failed can kiss my fat arse.

@BertrandRussell I don’t think anyone wants unnecessary intervention. The way I understand the post is that no one should be made to feel any birth which produces a healthy baby and a healthy mummy is wrong. After an emergency section I was asked if I needed to talk to anyone about the intervention I needed (which obviously wasn’t planned and far from what I was expecting). This is the point. I was fine. My baby was fine. What else should matter?

Also a uni friend who gave birth at Shrewsbury said how proud they were to have the lowest c section rates in the country (if I remember correctly). Absolutely terrifying that statistics should be put before the heath of those poor women and babies

I had two failed natural births. First I was induced, 18 hour labour and he slowed down so I was whisked away for a forceps delivery (which worked, otherwise it would have been a section).
Second one he got stuck as my pelvis was tilted. I was again given a forceps delivery and he came out with an apgar score of two. Without intervention I would not have either of my boys, who are now 8 and 3.

I have been told that there is no way I can have a natural birth and if I were to get pregnant again I would have to have a section.

I forgot to add, first baby - ALL the drugs. Second baby - no drugs whatsoever..... the midwives having not bothered to read my notes didn’t realise I was high risk and should have been given an epidural from the get go. It was the singularly most excruciating 😖 pain I’ve ever experienced. I’m glad we didn’t want any more as I’m buggered if I’m doing that again 🤦🏼‍♀️

What @HotSince82 said

Anyone says I failed can kiss my fat arse.

^^

Totally agree. I don't give a fuck if anyone thinks I failed because I had sections, only thing that counts is that the baby is born safely.

'Too posh to push' is another jingle that jangles my chain.

As a nurse who used to work in theatres, I am baffled by the way a c-section isn’t considered to be as serious as other abdominal surgery. As previous posters have said, you get much more caring and sensible post-op care after other major surgery.

It’s as if the fact that it is a form of childbirth makes it something less serious - as if a woman is supposed to be just the same after a section as she would be after a really easy vaginal delivery with no complications/tears etc. It’s an extension of the ‘You are pregnant, not ill’ mantra (which I also think is a pile of crap) - “You’ve only given birthday - why do you need help?” “Err - because I have a major abdominal incision, going through the abdominal wall, muscles and into my uterus, which needs time and care to heal properly!”

I think part of the problem is the way midwives train now. When I trained, we all did a three year general training, most of which was spent on the wards, delivering nursing care, and then midwifery was another 18 months on top - so every midwife had nursed patients who had had major surgery - as well as those with medical conditions which can and are found in pregnant women too. So they knew how to nurse medical and surgical patients as well as knowing how to care for women during pregnancy, labour, delivery and post partum.

Now midwives do a purely midwifery based degree - I suspect they do a lot less general nursing, and often don’t see themselves as nurses, or their patients as needing nursing care.

Firstly, I cannot believe the disgusting language used here. Secondly I would support any woman to give birth in the way she chooses. I have had three children, all naturally, not even gas and air; my daughter had one required caesarean and one elective caesarean. Fine. Surely the whole point is to have a healthy baby, not to get enraged about the process.

My DC are 30 and 28 now but there was much ridiculous heavy pressure from the NCT and other science denying hippies even when I gave birth to them. Not being a snowflake I took plenty of no notice and had epidurals twice, did not breast feed when it didn’t work and could not give a tinker’s whatsits what anyone else thought.

You would think the Enlightenment had not happened to hear what the non medical interventionists think. And that their twaddle is being aired by midwives and medical practitioners paid to practice science and medicine is beyond a joke.

Apart from that rant, each to his own.

Natural childbirth is an amazing experience if the support and environment is right.
Having an audience of medics armed with forceps, suctions,monitors, spinal injections and the scalpel sounds like hell to me.
But if it’s needed to keep mum and baby alive as a last resort then obviously wouldn’t knock it...

Like IVF, all that intervention isn’t natural is it come on?
Ever heard of Darwinism. Survival of the fittest and all that

Passive aggressive much.
Did you have a failed natural birth? Just wondering why you’re so cross about women who’re able to birth naturally?
Perhaps some soul searching or therapy to consider here your anger comes from and how to deal with rather than berate those who’ve taken a different path to you?

Absolutely agree. This is why I absolutely hated my NCT class. Just anti-Science, hippy dippy dross and as soon as the lady running it was told I would require intervention as I'd developed gestational diabetes she washed her hands of me & ignored me throughout classes.

Yeah I had an elective C because my son was breach at 37 weeks. I don’t think I failed at all; I think it was medically necessary and I was lucky that I recovered so quickly!

I don’t care what people say; I wouldn’t change a thing and if I ever had another, I would want another ELCS.

”...I took plenty of no notice...”

I love this phrase, @Lilyflower1 - may I steal it, please?

Just adding, this whole natural vs C section rhetoric needs to stop!! I count myself very lucky to have had a natural birth, especially as I had complications, but it's not something to be proud of! These things are out of our control so let's not act like anyone is better thsn anyone else.

Natural birth works well in the vast majority of cases and women should be supported and cared for throughout the process. If successful this is cheap for the NHS and healthy for the mother and baby. However, there is a large minority of cases where natural delivery does not happen successfully. We can worry on about obesity and older mothers and ‘too posh to push’ and all that sort of thing, but it is a basic biological fact that humans are not that well designed for giving birth. We have been an amazingly successful species, and the evolutionary price is very large brains which have got us where we are, and rather narrow pelvises, allowing us to stand on our hind legs. A big brain travelling through a narrow pelvis is a hazardous undertaking. Evolution doesn’t require every birth to be successful- if each woman averages 2 or 3 live births then the species will increase in number. You have only to look at mortality during birth in poor societies without medical care, or going back to previous centuries here. Women and babies die in large numbers, still, in many parts of the world because they have no option but to let nature take its course. We need well resourced maternity services from conception onwards where women are put at the centre of things and cared for. That is my overriding memory of a hideous birth - a complete lack of care. The medical procedures were done efficiently and correctly but I was very much a unit to be processed through the ward and received no nursing afterwards.

I think it goes back to the idea that the pain of childbirth is the punishment for Eve's disobedience and seduction of Adam. It's all total b*, of course, but it is instilled in some people, especially among the self-bloody-righteous. I had pre-eclampsia with my third child. Upon going into labour and having asked for an epidural (and requested it well in advance) they decided that "we" should see how it goes. They did not even read my notes. (I had an epidural with my second child, our daughter. It all went fine and was actually an enjoyable experience). Our third, however,was a spontaneous birth, which meant that that he was born within 20 minutes of second stages. It was short but bloody brutal and I went into shock with my risk of stroke greatly elevated, my GP told me later.