to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

How other people feel isn’t strange. Proud great. That’s part of the problem just focus on yourself.

The issue is that societally, only natural (preferably non medicated) births are things to be ‘proud’ of.

If you have a c section, usually because it’s medically necessary, it’s never seen as a source of pride. The narrative of failure is implicit.

So while I agree we should all focus on ourselves, the language around pride can be problematic.

I felt on a high after my HB in a way I didn’t after induction and epidural. I didn’t feel bad after induction at all but more like relief i had done it and I had avoided a c section.

Those feelings were natural to me I don’t think they’d change.

I’m all for no one feeling like a failure so fine to remove that just try not to dismiss the feelings of others (as strange even worse) in the process.

I think the reality lies somewhere in the middle.

We shouldn't be pushing the narrative that Labour is dangerous and scary and needs to be mediclised. But we also shouldn't be telling people that we're capable of giving birth at home with no pain relief or intervention and anything else if failing.

Assistance should be avaliable if needed and many women do need it. But for many gas and air and the close watch of a midwife is ample. Not all births are horrific and not all are pushing a baby out in the garden. The vast majority are in the middle.

Assistance should be avaliable if needed and many women do need it.

I agree with much of your post but the ‘need’ language is there again. It’s pernicious as there are too many examples of someone else deciding what a woman ‘needs’ or trying to talk her out of what she says she needs.

Assistance should be available if women want it. Their choice.

I think people should find the voice they need. Without dismissing or undermining others in the process. So that would get rid of a lot of the dismissive language on this thread.

If people who go down the medicalised route feel that doesn’t exist by all means build that up but leave people to choose freely without bad comment.

I felt like a failure for having a c section...partly due to the comoetition from friends who gad natural home births.
Why is that? Why did i feel bad? Coz a natural birth is seen as a badge of honour and a c section is seen as a negative...less womanly thing.

I reckon that cesareans will be standard in 50 year's time. They need to be

I thought vagina birth contributed to the babies immune system and gut flora. If this did become the case would be not see alot of problems with allergies, intolerance and obesity.

I also think there are many woman, myself included that don't want elcs. My second Labour was painful but only the contractions. Giving birth was a an amazing feeling and I'm glad I got to experience it.

Also I imagine that the American system doesn't incorporate any of the costs associated with rectifying birth injuries etc when calculating the cost of a vaginal birth

I think the major thing is that the US doesn’t use forceps, which is a major risk factor for vaginal birth injuries. Those cases usually are considered for EMCS.

I actually wonder if the high rate of vaginal birth injuries would be due to this outdated practice.

Vaginal birth does indeed play a role in gut flora and immunity.

There's an interest in vaginal seeding but the research isn't there yet to say if it's effective enough for babies born by Caesarean section as my son was.

There will be risks to all methods of birth. Birth is risky which is why obstetricians and midwives should work as a team to minimise the chances of things going wrong. When things do go wrong then effective team work will in most cases (barring catastrophe) safeguard both mother and baby.

As a midwife 20 years ago my role was to be beside the mother and offer support. If the mother wanted to give birth in a field (yes it has happened) then my role was to support that BUT to ensure she understood what the potential risks might be.

Can an ambulance access the area easily?
Do we have mobile phone coverage (and it wasn't great at that time)?
What happens if there's excessive blood loss?
etc etc

In the event it was easy, wellies to get across the field, a torch and a straightforward birth.

I'd defend the right of the mother to make the decision she did. But I equally had to prepare for less ideal outcomes and make sure the Mum understood the possible issues too.

I know I risk being told off, but is it possible that sometimes neutral comments are heard as hostile or negative? I

I'm not sure there's much 'flaming' of people who have natural births, many posters have merely recounted their own experiences. I do feel that the ideal is a vaginal birth and that if you haven't met that you may be made to feel inferior. I didn't feel inferior though, not after what I went through to get my kid here. I felt like I was strong as had gone through so much and will happily have another csection. And if women have an easy natural birth that's good, but I just don't believe that will happen for me so I'm having another c section.

I've had an epidural and was a terrible birth, 24 hours and ended up in theatre after failed venteuse in case forceps didn't work. I couldn't feel to push so birth didn't advance. It was awful, loads of stitches etc

Next birth was painful but waters broke a 6ish and dd was born at 10.40. It was much better and only a tiny tear that healed itself. Also had a sense of exhilaration that I didn't have the first time

Lol! Of course an elective C has better outcomes for your pelvic floor than any sort of vaginal birth. A c section has almost no impact on your pelvic floor. Do you understand what happens in both processes?

Of course an elective C has better outcomes for your pelvic floor than any sort of vaginal birth

Do you mean “can have better outcomes”? Because as with virtually every statement on this thread, it shouldn’t be an absolute.

Actually just being pregnant and having a baby, placenta, fluid etc pressing down has the biggest effect on your pelvic floor.

@BlouseAndSkirt Nope. That has a pretty minimal effect (though it does exist). Pelvic floor damage is overwhelmingly caused by the trauma inflicted during vaginal birth.

I know I risk being told off, but is it possible that sometimes neutral comments are heard as hostile or negative?

If that’s the case, Bert, you need to look at the factors that mean so many women are taking something neutral as a negative. What is it about wider discourse around birth choices that’s leading to so many women to feel this way - and to feel they’ve failed if they’ve needed interventions?

The ‘oh brilliant, well done you, what a superstar’ I got for vaginal births on G&A for both my (admittedly enormous) babies is certainly not something I’ve heard towards women who’ve had c-sections - I have heard sympathy and commiserations for some though. Which can’t be helping.

And it’s difficult to interpret ‘too posh to push’ or ‘the cheat’s option’ or ‘you’ve never really given birth’ as neutral.

It's really sacrificing your lower stomach muscles to save your pelvic floor then. And actually it's all part of the same 'girdle' so not really.

@RuffleCrow True! But I'd much rather have a painless wobbly tummy than pelvic floor issues (including incontenence!)

Sorry- that was the beginning of a much longer thing I decided not to post-that got out by mistake.
Yes of course people say unthinking things. I got well dones for my enormous babies too. But i think they were mostly something to say. If a friend of mine went in to have a vaginal birth but ended up with a c section I would probably ask what had happened - because it was not what she had planned. That wouldn’t be me being negative-it would be me knowing she might have a story she wanted to tell. And obviously, the “too posh to push” narrative is bollocks and needs to be stamped out. But I suppose I’m wondering if ^sometimes* it’s just ordinary language that’s being turned into something negative.

To be honest the OP is NBU.

We shouldn’t be pursuing natural birth (whatever that is) at any cost. But generally speaking I’d be surprised if that was happening anywhere in the UK.

Differences of opinion will occur.
Differences in decision making will occur.

There needs to be team work and above all women need to be heard.

I was well cared for during pregnancy and birth...through to caesarean.

My niece at a planned home birth recently was similarly well supported. She needed to go in to hospital and ended with a CS. but she was helped and cared for all through labour. When the obstetricians needed to get involved they did. It was a prime example of everyone working together to achieve safe birth.

you're a goddess whose body was made for this, you can 'breathe the baby out', childbirth pain is good, or if not good, then it's not actually pain but just a 'sensation', intervention is an evil that must be avoided at all cost, c-sections make you a failure, and you'll never bond as closesly with your baby if you have one.

Genuinely never met anyone in real life who says or believes this, and I know a lot of mums and live in quite a woo place... are you projecting?

(Except maybe branding pain as sensation in a book I read, but tbh that's exactly how I'd describe one of my births. It was a very intense sensation but never painful. The other one was, I'm not being smug!)

Many women do sadly feel guilty about having a C section or intervention or breastfeeding, but I don't think it's because of some woo minority championing free birthing or whatever.

I do think that sometimes things which have been said as satire or spoof end up being thought of as real. The same happens to feminism.....

I've had a c-section and two vaginal births. Recovered much quicker from the latter. People think they're avoiding pain when they have an elective c-section - i looked at it as the pain of birth backwards and actually the pain management after c-section was shitty - just fucking paracetamol and ibuprofen - i'd like to see a man coping on that after major abdominal surgery! I was in agony - much worse than the pain of childbirth imo - compounded by the fact that you're also trying to look after a newborn at the same time. Imagine learning to walk again whilst trying to change nappies and establish bf - i'm not exaggerating. Given the choice and knowing both sides i'd take the natural birth every time.

Totally fair enough rufflecrow but not everyone has that experience. I couldn’t walk more than a few paces for a month after a forceps birth. My NCT friends with caesareans were up and about much more quickly.

I think the point is that there is no better or easier way to give birth and people’s experiences vary widely.