to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

Have to say I agree. I felt that hypno birthing brainwashed me a little bit and I can see how women can feel like failures and be woefully unprepared for the realities of child birth. I refused all pain relief except gas and air but next time I'll be taking it all! I was given no medal afterwards

As other pp have said it's a women's choice over how she wants to birth her baby whether that be a 'woo' vaginal birth (I find calling a 'natural' vaginal birth woo quite offensive) or a birth requiring an intervention.
I used hypnobirthing for my birth and thought it was such a positive tool for childbirth. Why is it bad to look at childbirth in a positive way, and to find practical ways to help women during the process of birth? I thought the course I did with my husband was really informative - we learnt a lot more from it about the physiological process of birth than from our standard NHS antenatal classes. It also empowered me to read up on the different delivery methods, pain relief and interventions so that I could be informed when it came to my own birth.
In the end I had an unplanned homebirth without medical assistance - not an ideal situation in anyone's books, and I genuinely think if we hadn't done the hypnobirthing course that things would have turned out a lot worse - it kept me relatively calm and was a tool to deal with childbirth without any pain relief, and gave my husband information on how to help deliver the baby and what to do once baby was born!
We didn't go into childbirth conned that we were going to have the birth of our dreams - we were realistic that anything could happen, but felt informed on what the possibilities were. I also have found myself able to frame my birth experience which was traumatic in a positive way.
Why are women who choose to approach childbirth in a positive way and the people who help them do this being flamed?
Like I said it genuinely doesn't matter how baby arrives - yes in the following weeks from baby being born people will ask how the birth was but I think this is out of genuine concern for the mum - not because certain methods of birth are viewed as 'better' than others.

I've just read the other thread on the go, basically people telling their horrendous birth stories in poor UK hospitals, substandard care etc.

Makes me so glad I had my two sections abroad.

I don't feel guilty, I don't buy into the whole Earth Mother body is a temple, your body was designed to give birth etc etc. It's fucking painful, the NHS doesn't seem to get it right in terms of care, there's no support at all.

I reckon that cesareans will be standard in 50 year's time. They need to be.

And please don't come on and mention that sections are risking too, blah blah, I know, I've had 2!

I truly believe the best birth and the safest birth, for all concerned, is the one the mother wants. So if a woman wants a csection then give her that, if she wants a natural birth, howling at the moon, give her that - so long as there is no medical complications. Whatever keeps mum calm keeps baby calm. Women know their own bodies and should be listened to. Horrible birth stories, tend to be, at least the ones I’ve heard, are where mum wasn’t listened to or railroaded into something they didn’t want because others thought they knew best!

Yes it's an absolute crock of shit. I saw people sharing 'i gave birth naturally without any drugs im a superwoman' or some other shit. When i pointed out how hurtful it could be to other women, i was told i was jealous and secretly felt like a failure because i had a section. No, love.

I totally agree with OP.

I've had vaginal deliveries and a C-section. The C-section was by far the best and I recovered from it far more quickly.

That is truly horrible, NameChanged and I'm sorry that you were made to feel a failure - you were not a failure! I can't bear smug people. Those who have relatively easy labours and deliveries are just fortunate, it's not because they're clever. Many have to have a section, my neighbour's lovely daughter had two emergency Caesars, neither of which she had anticipated. Thank goodness she and her children are all very well indeed and that's what matters.

I agree with OP. I think it's ridiculous that women aren't informed about the risks of both vaginal and C-section births and allowed a free choice. I'm always amazed how many women are desperate to avoid a section when every single woman I know who's been left with long term damage after birth had the baby vaginally.

I'm fortunate to live abroad so I'm consultant led all the way with regular scans instead of measuring the fundal height (?!) and birth method is always a discussion and a choice - MY choice.

FWIW my ELCS was not straightforward (felt pain) but I'm still having another one because 2 weeks later I was basically fine. No tears, no pain down below, everything back in perfect working order. Not to mention my son born safely with no risk at all of cord round neck/ getting stuck etc.

If a woman wants to give birth vaginally then equally that should be respected but I do think risks should be made clear (especially in regard to interventions like forceps) and it shouldn't be hailed as best/ only/ default option. Equally, a woman should be able to have ELCS on demand in my view.

I reckon that cesareans will be standard in 50 year's time. They need to be

I hope not. I hated the recovery from Caesarean and two years on the scar still feels oddly tender. I’m not sure who these superwomen are that claim they were feeling back to normal in a matter of weeks. This was not my experience.

But I’d much rather a Caesarean than birthing tools. What country other than the UK even uses forceps? Absolutely ridiculous.

@CentralPerkMug
The recent study that claimed planned caesarian birth is £400 cheaper than vaginal birth added in compensation for negligence. Obviously this is stupid, as you cannot include negligence as a normal part of vaginal birth
Of course it isn't stupid for a study of this nature to consider all costs associated with a vaginal birth. This will include uncomplicated vaginal births, complicated vaginal births that end up with intervention or an EMCS and those births that are sadly mismanaged. Vaginal births by there very nature can be more unpredictable than ELCSs and therefore can lead to more complex situations that are more likely to be mismanaged and result in claims for compensation.

If a baby is later diagnosed with cerebral palsy for example, it can be hard for a trust to prove it isn't caused by vaginal birth
The burden of proof in civil cases doesn't work the way you imply. The claimant has to prove that on the balance of probability negligence and mismanagement of the birth caused the condition or injuries. The default position isn't that the NHS must pay out unless they can definitively prove that they weren't responsible.

Realistically, the true cost cannot be accurately measured, however it is pretty obvious that the majority of vaginal births will be cheaper than the majority of caesarian births
Your obsession with the immediate cost of an ELCS and your apparent inability to comprehend anything other than uncomplicated vaginal deliveries is undoubtedly skewing your perception of cost. As @Rubyroost highlights, the costs associated with a vaginal birth can spiral quickly when things become complicated and can end up in an EMCS anyway with all the associated costs of a C-section AND protracted attempted vaginal birth.

Multiple studies have indicated that on average (using the mean) vaginal birth is more expensive than ELCS. It is important to acknowledge this as there is still a prevailing myth that ELCSs are more expensive and this argument is often used to justify why women are not afforded the opportunity to opt for a C-section. Debate on this topic has to be factual, using the best evidence available, otherwise we leave ourselves open to policies being imposed on the basis of ideology as opposed to facts.

I agree. What's the point in living in a well developed country with free health care otherwise? Ensure your baby's and your safety, the reason most women and children now survive childbirth is because of huge scientific revolutions!

And I have had 3 vagina deliveries with no intervention and 2 of those home births. But you can be sure I listened to the midwife and made all choices on her expert opinion. With both home births I went to the hospital for follow up checks.

The flip side is of course ensuring the comfort and well being of the mother which does seem to ensure less intervention for non progressing labour etc.

Intervention should keep you and your baby safe. So not a failure but a brave strong woman in that situation.

Multiple studies have indicated that on average (using the mean) vaginal birth is more expensive than ELCS. It is important to acknowledge this as there is still a prevailing myth that ELCSs are more expensive and this argument is often used to justify why women are not afforded the opportunity to opt for a C-section

I’m not familiar with the British system (I didn’t give birth here) but in the US, ELCS is definitely more expensive than a vaginal birth. However, an EMCS is obviously the most expensive, so overall picture is complicated.

Although where I live everyone's like " take everything they offer you" not sure I agree with that. I'm more see how it goes and make a decision based on that because the drugs can be horrible!

However, to add to the earlier post ELCS is definitely not discouraged in the US as vaginal is seen as riskier for the doctor (lawsuits etc) and more profitable for the hospital.

I would have been much more scared of a c-section. As it happened I had a very easy time, I was much more concerned for my friend who had a planned section due to breach. I have to say though, none of my NCT group had negative birth experiences and they all had different levels of intervention.

I’d hate for people to be pushing c section as standard. I felt very lucky to narrowly avoid it.

I feel about c section others do about pain.

Of course if no choice I’m not going to avoid it.?

@MangoFeverDream
I’m not familiar with the British system (I didn’t give birth here) but in the US, ELCS is definitely more expensive than a vaginal birth. However, an EMCS is obviously the most expensive, so overall picture is complicated
The studies take into account the immediate, short and long-term costs associated with the different types of birth. As you can't elect for an uncomplicated vaginal birth, a woman attempting a vaginal birth will be risking assistance or an EMCS. The costs associated with these procedures should be included under the umbrella of attempted vaginal births to create an accurate picture of the true cost of each birth choice.

Also I imagine that the American system doesn't incorporate any of the costs associated with rectifying birth injuries etc when calculating the cost of a vaginal birth. My understanding is that this is similar to the NHS where a vaginal birth may initially be cheaper for a cost centre, but the ongoing costs associated with the birth are picked up by other departments further down the line.

No ? needed on my last sentence - mistake

’m not familiar with the British system (I didn’t give birth here) but in the US, ELCS is definitely more expensive than a vaginal birth. However, an EMCS is obviously the most expensive, so overall picture is complicated.

Do you mean that an ELCS is more expensive for the individual patient in the US? We have a different healthcare system in the UK - it’s funded by the taxpayers and the patient doesn’t pay at the point of use. The point @Bumpitybumper is making is that at a population level, planned c-sections have been shown to be cheaper for the taxpayer than vaginal births, once all the associated costs of vaginal births - such as surgical repair of tears, ongoing health problems such as prolapses, and payouts for botched vaginal births - are taken into account. But yes, if you were to opt for private healthcare here, an ELCS would be more expensive for you, the patient, than a VB (provided that the VB was straightforward).

Why are women who choose to approach childbirth in a positive way and the people who help them do this being flamed?

Firstly, no one should be being flamed unless they're shaming other women or denying them choice

Secondly, women are every bit as positive about their choice of CS as other women are about their choice of a vaginal delivery. Why? Because it's their choice - that's the crucial thing here.

I’d hate for people to be pushing c section as standard

That would only be the reverse of the current scenario. What's needed is clear information about the risks of vaginal and caesarean births, tailored to individual women's circumstances, so they can make an informed choice on the basis of actual science and the risks they feel most comfortable with taking

That would only be the reverse of the current scenario. agree

And with the rest of the paragraph

I had an ELCS for no reason other that I didn’t want to push a baby out of my vagina. The sad thing is that I had to pretend it was a mental health issue (I Fabricated suffering Type 2 Tokophobia) rather than simply state the truth.

I respect a woman’s right to choose although there doesn’t seem to be much choice.

I find it strange to hear women say how proud of themselves they are for giving birth without pain relief. I’ve never heard the same sentiment due a root canal. Surely the pride should be at having a new baby, not how you actually gave birth to it or the fact that you choose not to relieve the pain you were experiencing?

How other people feel isn’t strange. Proud great. That’s part of the problem just focus on yourself.

Surely the pride should be at having a new baby, not how you actually gave birth to it or the fact that you choose not to relieve the pain you were experiencing?

But why? Surely it can be both. I was delighted that I had the birth experience I’d wanted. Doesn’t mean I think for a moment a woman giving birth a different way is somehow “less”, simply that for me it was right.

What I would like to see are the stats around ELCS and EMCS being presented separately, as they are extremely different, instead of medical professionals (mostly midwives) lumping the stats together in an attempt to claim a natural birth is safer.

It's not. Plain and simple. A vaginal birth is risky and has a higher chance of complications and serious long term health issues for the mother than an ELCS.

I had an ELCS as DD turned breech at 37 weeks and I also had pre-eclampsia and cholestatis. I was out of bed the same day and the pain was managed by paracetamol, I'd compare it to the ache you get when you've done too many sit ups.

Either way, if you want a natural birth, I'm fully supportive, but this culture of a csection being a bad choice being promoted by midwives for God knows what agenda has to stop, now.