to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

Agree with your post CentralPerk and found it interesting

I have people telling me I haven't given birth because I had c-sections with both of mine. DS1 was prem and they had to get him out before he died. He was tiny and he wouldn't have survived a natural birth. DS2 was a planned c-section earlier as a precaution and they didn't want me to go in to labour

I am sorry you experienced that. They are idiots. Of course you gave birth, otherwise the baby would still be in there. There is a move towards the phrase 'caesarian birth' which I hope catches on.

It's the same with cancer treatments too....apparently chemotherapy is bad and a big pharma money making scheme and people should drink distilled water instead The same type distrust medical science in all its forms as it's not "natural."
Well nature brought us measles , polio and TB ( some conspiracists feel that these were manufactured by big pharms too.) Not surprising these types advocate breathing baby out. Bonkers.

It's a really difficult one. I've been on the other side of it slightly when I found out DC4 was breech. I was told I'd have to have a c section, though my midwife (who knew me from all 4 pregnancies) agreed to support me in asking for an attempt at a vaginal delivery, given that I'd had 3 very uncomplicated vaginal births before. Fortunately DC turned at 38 weeks. The problem with an approach that encourages interventions is that it is costly and does come with risks. Sadly there is no crystal ball to say "You'll be in the percentage that have an uncomplicated vaginal delivery with no stitches, you'll be home in 6 hours, you'll find whatever pain relief you have effective and you and baby will thrive" or, obviously, to foretell if things won't be like that.

There are improvements to be made countrywide on maternity services, but I personally haven't experienced a culture of "natural at all costs" and my friends have been largely well supported in their birth choices. Of course some of this is our white middle class privilege, some of it is local policy, some of it is luck. I'm sure it's worse for other women.

Christ some of these posts. No it’s not the same as denying chemotherapy or anti vaccination.

Sounds anti women’s choice to me.

Don’t know why I’m reading it so skewed. It’s just the same as having a go at someone for wanting a c section.

Our bodies are made to give birth, but it isn't without some risk, in the same way that our hearts were made to beat, but sometimes fail

I think this is a brilliant way of describing it. Of course our bodies are designed to give birth. However - like anything, sometimes it can go wrong. Do people feel like failures if something else doesn't go to plan? Like they end up with diabetes? I wouldn't have thought so. If a woman sets out to have a vaginal birth and it doesn't happen, this is never because her body 'failed'. Occasionally, her pelvis just isn't the ideal shape or size - but hows that a fail?? More often its because baby gets in an awkward position or cord gets in the way leading to concerns with the fetal heart rate. Again, this isn't a fail! Sometimes its because she was induced unnecessarily or not encouraged to mobilise or shouted at to 'push' in a directed manner, all things that set birth up to fail. Women's bodies never fail, they've grown a baby for flip sake, how can anyone thing they 'failed'??

There is a move towards the phrase 'caesarian birth' which I hope catches on.

It's better than "belly birth". That gives me the rage for all sorts of reasons.

And yet a much more medicalised approach to birth is taken in America, where maternal and neonatal mortality are much higher?

Is this something to do with the way their healthcare is structured though? Many Americans aren't insured so don't have cover for things like maternity/can't afford access. Are they ending up in risky situations/missing out on proper monitoring because of cost? Thus increasing poorer outcomes?

I have a feeling I'm about to lose my Friday night to Google sigh

Agreed.

I got myself really wrapped up in this idea when I was expecting DD. DD ended up being 18 days late and I was induced via the drip. I had an epidural although it didn’t work on one side apparently.

The birth and being unable to breastfeed triggered my PND. I think 5 years down the line no one is going to give a shit how you had your baby it’s just when your wrapped up in your baby bubble.

But I still feel shitty about it 9 months on.

Our bodies are made to give birth

Yes, but they're also evolved to be bipedal. Birth in other mammals is largely wider hips and on all fours. Humans have the competing requirement of narrower hips for walking upright. It isn't all that straightforward - just because we can reproduce, doesn't mean it's easy or without risk.

My first obstetrician was of the opinion that evolution took a wrong turn somewhere as women should have a hatch in their tummies for easy and safe checking on the foetus and then even more straightforward birth

I gave birth 14 years ago.

Hospital I chose offered natural birthing unit across the corridor from my birthing unit (that offered rooms with pools that were pretty much birthing pools if you wanted). There was a anesthetiest on site.

My birth was complicated and I was hugely grateful for the care I got for a live birth. It was my only chance to be a parent so I needed a live birth and I got a live birth although it was complicated and needed lots of intervention.

No one forced me with drugs/pain relief, so, I’m theory I could have had a natural birth. Was not meant to be and I’m grateful for the high tech manner in which my baby’s life was saved.

I remember some of my cohort were all for natural birth. Disgusted I was contemplating a more managed birth.

Their style would have resulted in my DS dying.

Do what you want with what’s available to you - but don’t please don’t force your first world attitudes into me. I’m so very grateful for a live birth.

Sadly, YANBU!

I do agree with what you're saying.
The Shrewsbury hospitals scandal sounds horrific.
How could all that go on for as long as it did?

I'm very live and let live when it comes to most things, but birth choices is quite scary when you think of all the propaganda out there eg natural birth is best, NCT zealots etc

I had an elective section.

Never once felt guilty.

People need to own their own choices and not let others dictate how they feel.

All this 'designed' stuff is hilarious- grow the fuck up and get a book on evolution.

“ While we're at it. I just wonder why some people are so desperate to see women in pain. Why do they push the no pain relief agenda on women and seem to take such gleeful pleasure in the idea of women enduring pain in childbirth? ”

Who are these psychopaths you seem to be associating with?

The Shrewsbury hospitals scandal sounds horrific.
How could all that go on for as long as it did?

And this is what the thread should be about, not having a pop at people wanting a home birth, or no intervention, or not getting the pain relief they wanted.

This hospital was badly below standard. We ought to be asking, are there others, we would hope nothing like as bad, where things aren't as good as they ought to be? We also ought to be screaming loud and long about underfunded maternity services - we should be demanding better, in what is still a wealthy country, with, by global standards, a healthy population.

In both my pregnancies, I had friends colleagues & acquaintances who would bang on about wanting a natural birth at whatever cost

I never kicked up too much of a fuss with them and their birth plans, I simply respected that's what they wanted

For me, I was totally happy with my elective CS for maternal request with DC1

I can safely say that your body does know what to do and although painful.was bearable.

WTAF? Because YOU have a particular experience are you really incapable or realising that everyone is different and some people have a different experience? For real? Surely no one is this obtuse.

Posted too soon!

And the elective CS for DC2 was entirely my choice and I was very happy with this

Thought about a VBAC for all of 5mins and decided it wasn't for me

I'd rather have a guaranteed abdominal scar rather than take the risk of instruments/episiotomies/4th degree tear etc

Natural birth was something I'd read about quite a bit and then decided it really wasn't how I wanted to give birth- too many variables of how things could pan out

I got a lot of head tilts and oh poor you after my CS, one acquaintance even asked if I was disappointed with how it all turned out.

Well no actually, I had my healthy newborn in my arms each time and gave birth exactly how I wanted to. A win-win really for me!

Completely agree. I had a five day induction where I begged for a c section on day three and was declined because ' we don't do that here' -at kings!!- and ended up with sepsis, baby with suspect sepsis, forceps birth, third degree tear, blood transfusion. If they'd just given me a c section when it became obvious the inductions wasn't progressing. I hate the fact they think we are all stupid. Anyway second baby was an elective section and absolutely wonderful, thank you pembury hospital. I don't think I've ever felt so angry about it anything as my first birth and it I knew they were bullshitting me but couldn't do anything about it, felt so helpless. My daughter nearly died because of their incompetence and I'm still inctontinent five years on.

I don't know where you are getting your information from, but caesarians are of course more expensive and obviously more risky

obviously more risky? Based on what? For example the rate of maternal death is higher with a caesarean, but if I recall correctly the rate of infant death/hypoxia brain injury is lower. A section may affect future fertility. But you’re more likely to have to live with a weak pelvic floor, damaged vagina, incontinence with a vaginal birth; These complications are very common.

They both have risks, and to say one is obviously more risky is very simplistic.

@burnagirl - regarding pain relief - part of the reason for being careful about analgesia in labour is the risks to the baby if the drugs cross the placental,barrier, or the risks of slowing down labour, and possibly increasing the risks of needing more intervention - forceps/ventouse/section. It is a balancing act between the needs of the mother and those of the baby.

I was at Kings. They prepped the theatre when I wasn’t progressing at the pushing stage. She came out just in time. Day three!