to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

I don’t know if I was influenced beyond medical risk so can’t really relate to that. A friend said this and that but otherwise I didn’t feel not listened to.

Appreciate different for others and by all means keep going for the same for everyone to be informed and feel in control. Perhaps it is the norm not to feel listened to.

It was worse when we had no choice

Just because it used to be worse isn’t a particularly good reason not to strive for it to be better.

But there’s no way I’d go back to stirrups and drugs so am pleased there was movement against this. Even if some question it now.

Yes keep striving by all means but don’t throw the baby out with bath water by going on about whale music brigade.

It’s belittling in other ways.

But there’s no way I’d go back to stirrups and drugs so am pleased there was movement against this.

I was physically manhandled into stirrups and my only drugs (G&A) withdrawn for the last hour because the midwife decided it was best and took it away. No explanation, no discussion, and certainly no disclosure of the risks to the baby of an hour plus of pushing given the complications she’d chosen not to tell me about.

The seven staff who were summoned in when she screamed at my husband to push the red button a few minutes before he was born also seemed surprised by her choices.

Myself and 2 of my children would be dead or seriously damaged if it wasnt for intervention

You still haven’t said why any of this is relevant to the Shrewsbury scandal. It sounds much more like a stick to beat “the whale song brigade” to me.

It does to me too. What about the callous treatment meted out to bereaved parents at the hospital? Absolutely inexcusable. No one has said a peep about that.

“ I don't understand the I chose no interventions”
I don’t think anyone is saying that. What people like me are saying is that we want as few interventions as possible- that we will be guided by medical advice of course, but if there is a safe choice we would rather no interventions.

There is a damaging movement towards 'all or nothing' approaches, esp around childbirth and breastfeeding. That's there isn't just 'I don't need intervention' but 'I will refuse intervention', and every breastfeeding woman must EBF to 6 months, and breastfeed to 2. Not only does it fetishise motherhood and suffering, but it erodes the ability to trust ones own judgement and instinct, something that mothers need. Be that instinct to birth naturally, or to know she wants a c section, the more we cloud these events with 'should', the more disenfranchised we become. The natural birth movement is merely the other side of the same coin.

Yes keep striving by all means but don’t throw the baby out with bath water by going on about whale music brigade.

Women should be given the information to make choices based on their own individual circumstances. It should all be fact based with no personal opinions or emotions (the consultant anesthetist who sat and bitched about women wanting vbacs with my dh for a good 20 minutes being a case in point) and tying women down etc shouldn't come into it.

My issue comes from my experience of midwives attempting to push vaginal birth without looking at individual risks & circumstances and indeed preferences. The problem isn't other women, it's a culture where midwives think it's okay to tell you that the male doctor who delivered your son is a "butchering bastard*" when you're vulnerable and damaged, who tell you everything is fine when you raise concerns and then of course leave it to the doctors to tell you actually you were right all along but by that point you're seeing things, too tired and dehydrated to actually give informed consent. Midwives who don't bother introducing themselves in theatre so you feel totally alone or postnatally ask if you were pushing properly because your baby is so small and they can't believe he was stuck.

Obviously not all, the midwife with dc2 was absolutely amazing but with my first they were all utter cows. I mean who tells a broken woman that "she shouldn't have got pregnant if she wasn't over being raped" when her baby in an incubator in NICU.

I can absolutely believe that what happened in Shrewsbury came about from a toxic culture because I witnessed something very similar first hand and am still suffering from it.

Dinosaur I was going to highlight some of that but realised it was too much as there’s so much that’s absolutely awful. How dare people speak to you like that. Bastards. I’d feel the same.

Ugh I hate this view! When I have a baby I can guarantee I'm going into that hospital room dead set on an epidural at the minimum! I don't see why women should have to feel uncomfortable for no reason when there is perfectly safe pain management available!

I've spoken to my boyfriend about it before and he's all for having a natural birth using mindfulness and meditation. Fuck that.😂 This is coming from the man whose entire body collapses when he has a cold!

I have people telling me I haven't given birth because I had c-sections with both of mine. DS1 was prem and they had to get him out before he died. He was tiny and he wouldn't have survived a natural birth. DS2 was a planned c-section earlier as a precaution and they didn't want me to go in to labour.
I have several times encountered "So you've never had a contraction? So you can't say you've given birth then" usually followed with a shake of the head like I was a huge disappointment. I used to find it upsetting - not because of my choice but because I felt so judged. I used to try to explain why. Now I couldn't give a fuck - I just let them get on with it. Why should I have to justify how I gave birth to my children? Wankers.

Having had 2 births requiring interventions then a completely natural birth I can safely say that your body does know what to do and although painful.was bearable. Having epidurals meant that I didn't know when to push and it did take longer. However, the only things I was bothered about were me and the baby coming out of the ordeal safely so I had no birth plan or anything.

coffee, if your boyfriend wants childbirth using mindfulness and meditation, he can do it himself luckily his opinion matters not one jot.

Also, I was surprised to see that some women here have been led on by midwives who promised epidurals then said it was too late for one. I thought it was just me. Definitely an agenda happening here.

YAsoNBU

I was told 'don't you want to even try?' when I fought for an ELCS over a VBAC. No, I'd rather go for the option which statistically has the best outcomes for me, thanks.

According to the surgeon who delivered DC2, they would almost certainly have been stillborn had I attempted a vaginal delivery.

This madness needs to end and women need to be heard: if you want to try for all natural with no interventions, brilliant. But if you want to go full medical then that should be brilliant too, not 24 weeks of hellish arguing which damages your mental health during pregnancy, despite the evidence all pointing to this being your best option.

YADNBU- when I had DD1 the hospital refused to believe I was in labour even though I was agonising pain and sent me home 2 hours before she was born despite the fact I was being sick from the pain and hadn't slept in two days. She was born on the bathroom floor. I wouldn't wish that pain on anyone.
Natural birth is a load of rubbish as far as I'm concerned why anyone would want to go without that without any pain relief is beyond me.

I think everyone should do what works for them. I think the term woo woo is insulting and shuts down the reasoning behind natural birth. I did hypnobirthing because I was terrified for 6 months of giving birth and it seriously helped me and my anxiety, and I was lucky with my birth, yes it was agony but I didn't seize up from fear which really helped. I am well aware it could have gone the other way, I'm not judging other mums for interventions, of course they are necessary. We don't all have to have them though, and I was lucky. But yes I preferred a natural birth, sorry if that's annoying for others.

There should be more emphasis on informed choice, and less on trying to enforce personal opinion or agenda onto women. I know people who have felt bullied out of the interventions that would have made childbirth a smoother experience for them, and conversely women who were made to feel irresponsible for wanting a less medical experience.

I went into my labour hoping for a water birth without intervention. I ended up being induced, having an epidural and an emergency c section due to my baby being in distress. I refuse to feel bad or inadequate for following medical advice to make sure my baby was healthy and safe and it makes me really cross that other women often walk away from their labour feeling that way.

I agree that 'no interventions' is damaging. The movement is akin to militant breastfeeders and anti vaxxers if you ask me.

I'm a member of a parenting group and one member who is supposedly highly trained in certain aspects of childbirth recently shared links to a study that contained absolutely no credible sources that stated that continuous monitoring is harmful to labouring women and their babies. And when I questioned it and asked her why there were no credible sources she told me to contact the writer of the study And she portrays herself as an authority figure in the childbirth world. Fucking ridiculous and downright dangerous to be peddling that shit to pregnant women who are potentially vulnerable and naieve.

I've had one labour that had numerous interventions, one natural birth and one that went scarily fast from natural birth to emcs. And if I hadn't been monitored during that one, goodness knows what would have happened. But thankfully, I had my interventions and all worked out well.

While we're at it. I just wonder why some people are so desperate to see women in pain. Why do they push the no pain relief agenda on women and seem to take such gleeful pleasure in the idea of women enduring pain in childbirth? I am not talking about an individual's choice, as that's fuck all to do with me, but about groups and organisations that promote the damaging message that that particular pain is somehow a good thing.

My own mother, whilst giving birth to me, was denied pain relief and told that she should've kept her legs shut if she didn't want to be in pain. Shocking by anyone's standards, I'm sure. But it made me think that SOME PEOPLE at least will see the pain of birth as almost... almost a punishment a woman deserves for having had sex? I then found that plenty of women endured similar comments. Creeptastic.

maternal and neonatal mortality rates have fallen since the development of modern medical support for childbirth

And yet a much more medicalised approach to birth is taken in America, where maternal and neonatal mortality are much higher?

It's cool if you want an intervention free birth, really. I don't object to any choices an Individual woman makes. What I DO object to is the institutions and peer groups that push the narrative of, well, woo - as in, you're a goddess whose body was made for this, you can 'breathe the baby out', childbirth pain is good, or if not good, then it's not actually pain but just a 'sensation', intervention is an evil that must be avoided at all cost, c-sections make you a failure, and you'll never bond as closesly with your baby if you have one. As in, implying that giving birth naturally makes you a better mother. That, I object to very strongly

Can you please point me in the direction of these groups as I have never saw this? Yes, most sources of information will point out the obvious - that a caesarian birth does increase the risks for a mother and in future pregnancies, increases the risk for mother and baby. This is fact. Don't you think people should be informed of facts in order to give informed consent? I have never read anywhere that 'intervention is evil', quite the opposite in fact. I look forward to you pointing me in the direction of where you read this.

Most women don’t need or want stronger pain relief than gas and air though do they. Only 30% of women globally choose an epidural

This is untrue. If any woman says she needs more pain relief, then she needs more relief. Who are you to say it isn't necessary because some women globally don't have the option of it? Globally, the induction rate is much lower when compared with the UK. Induction is much more painful than spontaneous labour!

I know many children who were born and needed immediate care (including my own dd). Both my daughter and my nephew would probably have died if I had gone down the home birth route

Homebirth is absolutely safer than hospital birth for LOW RISK women who have had a vaginal birth before. Midwives are well prepared to resus babies at birth if needed. Interventions in hospitals are often why babies born there need more help....

I find the natural birth movement quite sinister and misogynistic. So many people seem to be absolutely convinved that c-sections are more expensive (untrue), less safe (untrue) and tantamount to failure (untrue!). The NHS has a lot to answer for here as they are happy to perpetuate a lot of these myths in a desperate bid to meet some ill-considered targets and manage cost centres

I don't know where you are getting your information from, but caesarians are of course more expensive and obviously more risky. I really don't know why stating the evidence behind these facts is 'sinister'. Caesarian is a brilliant option for people who need it, whatever that reason is. But vaginal birth is without question safer for women. Caesarian may be safer for baby, however there is any amount of evidence out there that shows it is increasing the baby's risk of asthma, allergies, obesity, diabetes etc etc in the future due to missing out on the microbiome. Immediate skin to skin could help with this and needs to be better facilitated for babies born by caesarian. Unfortunately though lots of these babies need resus due to missing out on the 'squeeze' of the birth canal so it isn't going to be possible a lot of the time.

I find this thread very offensive towards those of us who promote normal birth. I personally chose to not have intervention or pain relief because thats what I wanted. OP compares this to dental treatment - when I have dental treatment, I am not concerned with drugs passing to my baby, getting breastfeeding off to a good start, me being able to quickly mobilise so I can independently care for my baby, being able to drive after getting home, wanting to avoid needles in my back and a catheter in my bladder. Not really comparable, is it??? I find it interesting thats its assumed I am being a 'martyr'.