to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

To me, if a woman Wants intervention/painkillers then we might as well say she Needs them. No difference between the two in labour. That's how it should be seen

Hear, hear!

I've found drug use is encouraged and the attitude our bodies don't know what to do quite high

But also patriarchal society = no choice, strapped down, medicated without consent, legs in stirrups, routine episiotomy enema and shave....

@burnagirl I completely agree. As I mentioned before, I had my baby in the US, and told my doctor at 20 weeks that I wanted an epidural. I was in a bit of a state at the appointment, because I'd been reading "The Positive Birth Book" and it terrified me, so I went in prepared to demand my epidural and not back down, only to be offered one immediately and have it written up in my notes.

When I started to cry because I was afraid I wouldn't get on in time, my doctor even offered to induce me and give me the epidural first, so there was no way I'd have to go without pain relief for even a moment. I was still scared, but a lot less scared knowing I wouldn't be writing around in agony for hours.

I'm a bit horrified to hear that in some hospitals pain relief is actively discouraged for women who desperately want it. Again FINE IF YOU DON'T WANT IT, but if you do, having it denied is barbaric.

I had easy births...it was total luck.

I never thought of it as an experience or had any particular preference beyond baby out safely, both of us healthy.

I can't bear the candles and whale music brigade. Load of nonsense.

“ I know I'm bad at pain so I decided I wanted an epidural and I had one in 1983 even though the midwives were furious with me.“
Why were the midwives furious and how did they express their fury?

I agree if I want them before I actually need them, pre-epidural in my case, then yep I get them. It was fine no one did the opposite.

I did think the GP was hard work when I asked for drug relief for an upcoming miscarriage.

I just find this fetishisation of female suffering in labour really, really disturbing and creepy. From "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children'' to ''you're a goddess, the pain is a spiritual bonding experience'', it's all really quite sinister.

I wanted a vaginal birth. And I was lucky enough to have one.
However, I too convinced myself I would do it drug free etc etc
When my water broke early I was petrified.
When I learned I had to be induced, I said to DH that I was definitely getting an epidural in that case - secretly relieved that I had given myself permission to have one.

I did get one, but only just before my penultimate contraction. It still made a difference though.

The amount of people who asked afterwards, and then commented ‘well I didn’t think you would have caved and asked for the drugs’ was astonishing. One was my sister, who hadn’t even given birth so how would she know?!

Anyway, I’d say to any woman now - you don’t get any prizes for going through it pain free. Do whatever you need to do to be as comfortable as you can be.

Having done both I’d be equally annoyed if the mw or anyone gave me a hard time over being able to and wanting to do it without pain relief - bar medical risk.

“ I just find this fetishisation of female suffering in labour really, really disturbing and creepy”
Good not-being-judgemental! You really are not keen on listening to other people’s point of view, are you?

But also patriarchal society = no choice, strapped down, medicated without consent, legs in stirrups, routine episiotomy enema and shave

Yes. Absolutely. Basically, men making choices on behalf of women’s bodies and experiences... of which they can never relate to.

The choice is the important part here.
I was very lucky I had one.

I had natural births. It was luck. I still needed to be stitched up after them both.

No to natural at the cost of mother and babies life.

I've never judged women for having c sections of interventions, anything to keep mum and baby alive and well. However when I was asked if I'd had a c section (probably due to the pee tube thingy (forgotten name help!)) I felt so horrified and angry at the question I dwelled on it for quite a while and was angry with the midwife for about an hour later. Totally irrational and I blame the hormones, but I think because I've seen a friend be judged for having to have an emergency one the feelings I felt more were "no and don't judge me!" Even though she wasn't. That rambles but I hope you get my point.

Bertrand, I really, honestly don't care if a woman chooses to give birth with zero pain relief and deal with the pain. More power to her. As long as she's happy and safe, she can do whatever the hell she wants and I'll even clap.

What I dislike is the narrative around childbirth in certain circles, and the pushing of a 'natural' birth on unwilling women.

@SheeshazAZ09

What OrangeSlices998 said. While I'm in favour of women having the births they want and the medical interventions they need, there is absolutely nothing in the media coverage of this maternity unit that suggests that "natural births" or "earth mothers" have anything to do with the multiple failures in care that occurred.

I think the suspicion - yet to be proven of course - is that doctors and midwives were so hellbent on keeping their c-section rates low that they pursued vaginal births at any cost. Including dead and brain damaged babies.

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/shrewsbury-maternity-scandal/shrewsbury-maternity-scandal-nhs-babies-deaths-natural-birth-a9212636.html

--Rhiannon Davies, who has campaigned to expose poor maternity care at the trust after the avoidable death of her daughter Kate, in 2009, said: “The midwives and doctors are waiting too long to intervene because of this toxic culture that says birth is normal and medical help is failure.

“How many other maternity units are putting ideology above safety?”--

I get where you are coming from burnagirl. I'm probably not the best person to comment on this thread - though I already did earlier on - because I only had one child, naturally, and it was easy but I've known so many who had dreadful experiences and would never, ever judge. Who knows, if I'd had another child it could have been much harder, a friend of mine had the worst labour with her third.

I had a miscarriage at approx 12 weeks and that was the worst pain imaginable so I have some insight. When it came to actually giving birth to my son it was easy by comparison. That miscarriage was dreadful and took a few hours, pain was off the scale and 'pushing' towards the end was so difficult because, let's face, there wasn't much to push out in terms of size. At least when I had my boy he was on board with coming out.

“ Bertrand, I really, honestly don't care if a woman chooses to give birth with zero pain relief and deal with the pain.”
You could have fooled me.

You still haven’t said why any of this is relevant to the Shrewsbury scandal. It sounds much more like a stick to beat “the whale song brigade” to me.

Who’s the ‘we’ in making shit up? Men women?

It was worse when we had no choice

The 'whale song brigade' as you put it can crawl up a whale's arse and sing if it pleases them. I just object to them pushing an agenda onto unwilling women and producing traumatised mothers who were denied pain relief or wanted caesareans.

Someone did give HB a good rap which led me to doing it.

The mw helped me keep calm.

The reason it was doable for me is that I didn’t feel panicked about pain.

As I said I think induction is different for me so I said don’t come near me with that drip until I’m pain free.

Mental attitude counted for a lot.

I don't understand the I chose no interventions. How do you choose that ? Baby is stuck I chose no interventions then they don't just go ok and let the baby expire. Surely it's I hoped for no interventions and luckily I didn't need any.

I had ventouse my DS was 11lbs, I bloody needed an intervention and I'm not ashamed one bit. Also next birth I will not be doing that on gas and air. The pain was exhausting. Each to their own.