to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

With my 1st the midwives were determined to keep me away from the obstretricians even though I was convinced dc1 was stuck (awww 1st time is it.....). 81 hours after my waters broke with a completely deflated bump exhausted and hallunicating from far too much gas & air as I wasn't allowed anything stronger for 99 percent of it (interventions don't you know) he was finally removed by emcs following failed forceps.

I have never known anything which even touched on the pain of my contractions as giant headed dc1 attempted to leave via my sciatic nerve for 75 hours, having my pain minimialised by midwives because they "can tell when you're in established labour"...no they couldn't. For comparison I had zero pain relief post c-section because it just didn't hurt even when I was walking backwards and forwards to NICU within the first 24 hours.

I still have nightmares about it and in fact was eventually diagnosed with c-pstd because it brought so many traumas from my childhood and early adulthood flooding back.

For example, I think a lot of people are more accepting of c-sections where they are medically indicated or needed to save the life of the child or mother when there are issues during an attempted vaginal birth, but I think large swathes of society do not view them as an equally valid birth choice. The sheer number of posters on this thread that insist that natural is best or safest certainly implies this.

I agree. I was almost 41 when I had dc2, the midwives were still pushing vbac as the best option and when I brought up studies that my doctor SiL gave me on severe tears increasing over 40 and the fact that my six pound nine ounce baby couldn't be pushed or pulled out told me I was just being "silly". I had friends tell me I shouldn't book an elective but just try and have an emergency if needed. It didn't matter that I found the aftermath of dc1's arrival so horrific, being made to go to NICU to look at what I thought was a doll, the feelings of failure virtually everyone seemed to think a repeat of that was better than just electing for a c-section. As if accepting that perhaps my body isn't designed to give birth to the babies I make with my husband was a reflection on them too. As it happened, I went into labour ahead of the planned section and had to argue that one too. "Luckily" she was so wrapped in the cord, the trace was starting to look a bit dodgy... had she been fine, it's quite possible that she would have been another c-section at full dilation because "natural birth" is best, apparently.

A system where women are given information relating directly to them without judgement or blame would be wonderful. Despite having c-ptsd no one interferes in my decisions as a parent. No one questions my choices, negates them or tells me I don't know what I'm doing and yet in labour...I was treated like a child by a succession of midwives.

Really agree with you op. I was induced and was in fucking agony, the midwives were trying to put me off having an epidural even though I was hooked up to a drip and literally tearing my hair out with the pain. I felt panicked, and not listened to. It was very frightening. I did get my epidural in the end but overall when I look back on my birth experience I shudder. So much so that I am pushing for sterilisation as I know I couldn't go through it again.

I was made to feel from my antenatal places that I was going to breathe the baby out using just herbal oils and massage, it would be a calm and amazing experience, the pain would be manageable and productive bla bla fucking bla.

@JassyRadlett Some midwives are pro-normality, and will talk women out of one when it’s available and has been requested, which is wrong.

My point was you can ask for one as early as you like, but that doesn’t mean you’ll trump the collapsed woman or the severely pre eclamptic woman who needs the anaesthetist more. There will be a wait even if everyone is free.

@Dinosauratemydaffodils, I’m so sorry, that’s horrific.

The VBAC thing is a very interesting one. A friend had stated a preference and when it came to the baby being born the midwifery team were so committed to ‘giving her the VBAC she wanted’ that they burned through all the (supposed) no go points, and ended up being induced (which wasn’t supposed to happen in her circumstances) and a series of delays and interventions when she should have been taken for an immediate c-section. It was delayed until the absolute last possible moment.

She very nearly died and had PTSD and PND as a result.

Ironically her preference for a VBAC was extremely mild, but her attempts to explain that and question why induction etc was suddenly ok were pretty much ignored.

The lack of access to pain relief is a real issue. If men gave birth this would never be an issue.

I have had to have 2 c sections. The consultant sencond time round said he would give me till 40 weeks but I could not go over that. I could not have induction meds as I had a previous section and no amount of sex made baby come out of his own accord. I healed well in the end but my stitches opened twice. I was much better prepared for the pain however the sound of the staple gun as the constant stapled me up will be with me forever. I am lucky that my consultant worked with me to get me to that stage. My ds did not need steroid injections to help his lungs unlike his sister. After dd I was given paracetamol and ibuprofen for pain after section as per hospital shitty guidelines. In some areas women get prescribed morphine, the pain led me to feel crappy, sad and generally upset after I had my daughter and contributed to pnd.I have a high risk of stillbirth so whilst I do not enjoy having sections and the crappy after effects I am beyond grateful for my children. It has affected my longterm health though and should not be thought of lightly.

Vaginal births come with their own problems and do not always go to plan. Interventions should be made available to women throughout their labour if a woman needs or asks for them. Over medicalised births are still an issue though!

My point was you can ask for one as early as you like, but that doesn’t mean you’ll trump the collapsed woman or the severely pre eclamptic woman who needs the anaesthetist more. There will be a wait even if everyone is free.

Yes that’s totally reasonable and I’m sorry you’ve had abuse when you’ve explained those issues to women.

It’s the attempts to talk women out of pain relief that I find totally reprehensible (as well as the funding issues that mean pain relief isn’t more rapidly available to women in labour, I’m sure partly because higher ups feel they don’t ‘need’ it.)

I just think first of all that it should be called a vaginal birth, not a 'natural' birth of a 'normal' birth. That would debunk some of the issues here. Secondly, in my experience it's women who have given birth vaginally who have a way of justifying their 'success' in ante and post natal groups, NCT and the likes, and end up making women who need or want a birth with intervention feel like failure.

I also think that we are intelligent enough to understand that vaginal birth hurts a lot, without using emotional language such of the 'back to nature' type, 'this is what your body is meant to do', etc. If presented with the facts, women can make up their own mind and we don't need these emotional references.

Same with breastfeeding in my opinion. Plenty of mums that I know couldn't or wouldn't breastfeed and had absolutely no problem with attachment. Why is this word being consistently used in printed stuff? You will bond better if you breastfeed etc so it puts the fear of not bonding in women who can't or won't breastfeed? Dads can bond with the babies without BF them, no?

Anyway, rant over. moving on to a now

After dd I was given paracetamol and ibuprofen for pain after section as per hospital shitty guidelines.

That's another issue as well. I've been very lucky and not needed pain killers after either of my sections but dh had a hernia repair recently and came home with a half a pharmacy. The difference between what he was given and what women post c-section are offered was immense.

YANBU the best kind of birth is a safe birth it doesn't matter how it happens so long as everything is done in the interests of mother and babies safety. Bit like these breast is best nutters who'd rather see a baby starve than give in to formula so long as mother and baby are safe and well at the end then who cares how it happens

Exactly, Dino.

I’ve had two very different births. HB with no pain relief - agree with pp on G&A it does very little and makes me ill - and induction due to age over 40 weeks.

A couple of friends said ask for epidural before you get the drip as there can be a wait. So I did and no regrets. The HB gave me more of a high but I have no qualms in avoiding pain when I choose to.

Although it did almost cascade with latter as had one more push before c section. Prepping theatre. Felt very lucky to avoid it.

Patriarchal society = men at the top make the policies, even when it comes to something they will never, ever experience. Such as child birth or (dare I say it) learning to breastfeed.

Patriarchal society = you must push a 4kg human out of your body with no pain relief cause that's what your body was made to do.

Equally, patriarchal society = you must give birth on your back in stirrups cause Lord Doctor needs a better view.

No way patriarchal society you must be strapped down and drugged no choice

Better - your choice if you want to walk and stand

X post

And lastly, patriarchal society = women and babies dying/mothers ending up traumatised cause nobody ever bothers to fucking listen.

@Sceptre86 Paracetamol and ibuprofen for pain after section?! That's horrific. I'm in the US and had Oxycodone prescribed for a week after my section.

I had an ELCS (which I LOVED, and not just because of the opioids ) but if people want to go all natural and painkiller free, then good for you. It's the denying women pain relief of interventions they want which I find appalling.

To me, if a woman Wants intervention/painkillers then we might as well say she Needs them. No difference between the two in labour. That's how it should be seen.

Hear hear!! Read the book 'pushback' by Amy tuter on this subject. Eye opening!

My antenatal yoga class is like this. There was a different teacher during my first pregnancy who was very balanced but the new one is very woo, anti-intervention and repeatedly says "your body was made to do this, you can breathe your baby out" etc.

I'm all for empowering women to have the birth they want, but I do wonder how it affects them when it doesn't go to plan.

Oh and so far 3 in our class have given birth - one had the water birth she was aiming for and two have ended up with emergency sections. Not the best odds for breathing babies out

A major perpetrator of this dangerous mythology is milli Hill. I wish I had never read ' the positive birth book', it is shaming and harmful and generates mistrust in medical staff.

It's a lovely ideal all this earth mother natural birthing stuff but so many women died in childbirth before the days of modern medicine leaving families bereft or split up.
My idea of a successful birth is one where nobody dies.
Why are women always being made to feel like failures? We should be able to decide what we want with zero criticism from other mothers.
I know I'm bad at pain so I decided I wanted an epidural and I had one in 1983 even though the midwives were furious with me.
It was great, no pain at all and a nice relaxed birth for me. I was very happy with it and didn't give a shit what anyone else thought.