to think the natural birth at all costs ideology is fucking crackers?

[burnagirl]

We have a scandal on our hands. Shrewsbury Maternity Unit.

I couldn't believe what I was reading, but to be honest, I wasn't all that surprised, having had many a run in with the natural birthers/earth mothers in the past.

There is a toxic and insidious ideology permeating the 'birth culture' in the UK. This culture that tells women that our bodies were 'made' to give birth, that our bodies KNOWWWW what to do, that any intervention means failure on our part. That childbirth pain is something to be endured with happiness and joy - I mean, really? Is it some sort of a more 'noble' pain? Something transcendental and sacred and good?

Nah, fuck off with that. You wouldn't have a root canal with no pain relief, so WHY do we fetishise female suffering in childbirth? To me, there's this mile-wide misogynistic miasma around this narrative, probably rooted in religion.

Then there's this totally daft idea of intervention/c-section being a failure. Such bollocks. We don't seem to realise that, from an evolutionary perspective, it isn't even necessary for MOST mothers to survive childbirth. All we need is ENOUGH mothers and babies to survive, so no, our bodies are not sacred temples that somehow magically Know Best.

Can we please do away with the woo around childbirth and just do what needs to be done to ensure that mothers and babies come out of the (let's face it, fucking painful and dangerous) process alive and well, however the hell it happens?

I had the opposite. I wanted I medicated water births (which I had) but was repeatedly pushed to have an epidural, gas and air, additional checks. I was very clear from the start both verbally and in writing that I wanted none of it and only wanted intervention when baby was at risk. Baby was never at risk but they still continually pushed the drugs, intervention etc.

It's the same midwives in the hospitals as at home.

Not always - it depends how it's organised locally. But often they are Community midwives who will have chosen to work where they do.

Not for me my HB midwife only did homebirths.

@BertrandRussell well in my experience it's within these Facebook groups and more natural living community settings.

Personally my midwives fully supported my decisions but backed it up with my results. They did stand with me against a consultants wants but that was because the Dr was being ridiculous in their requests and using fear mongering to try and push decisions that had no basis.

It's the same midwives in the hospitals as at home.
Nope. Not always.
My hospital has a dedicated HomeBirth team that has extra training on emergencies.

But is it fair to force a midwife into a situation that she does not believe is safe? To potentially make her powerless in a situation that could result in the loss of life?

It is a fundamental of medical care that, unless they are deemed not competent to make decisions for themselves, that consent sits with the patient.

The question for the midwife is not whether a woman should be 'allowed' to give birth at home or not. That's not her call. It's not her call to force a ventouse or a C-section if the patient refuses consent, even if it endangers her life or the life of the unborn baby.

The question for the midwife, and the midwifery profession that dictates what the midwife is and is not required to do, is whether it's safer with the midwife there, or without the midwife there.

In my area they do alternate. So the HB midwives rotate and the same ones can then be rotated into hospital. I did ask about the system as I did enquire at one point.

However DH response was absolutely not 😂

I once subscribed to this ideology and insisted to give birth naturally unless baby is clearly dying... Felt early intervention was a conspiracy.

My 2 natural labour and delivery taught me a very hard lesson about how wrong I was. My body was certainly not designed for the outcome

So unreasonably and rude actually. Our bodies are made to give birth, but it isn't without some risk, in the same way that our hearts were made to beat, but sometimes fail.

Of course women and babies should have intervention when medically necessary (for physical or mental health) but they shouldn't be pressured or scared into it.

There is so much fear around birth spread by people like you - can you stop shaming mums who choose a natural birth please? It's judgemental and unhelpful.

Can someone help me understand the link between natural birthing and the Shrewsbury scandal? I've read a few articles and all I've seen mentioned is neglectful behaviour and massive mistakes, not interventions being avoided in favour of a 'natural birth'.

After having an awful birth, full of interventions, feeling without a choice, I'm really hoping for a 'woo' birth this time. I don't see anything misogynistic about the 'movement'. I've been reading Ina May Gaskin and joined some Facebook groups and lots of the focus seems to be around how amazing and empowering birth can be when you feel in control - in fact, lots of the positive birth stories on my hypnobirthing group talk about interventions they decided to have, and why they contributed to their 'positive' experience. Surely this should be the focus: excellent care, given with choice and with the woman and child at the heart of it?!

@PooWillyBumBum one of the news articles I read was that the midwives were so hell bent on completing the birth and not handing over to the Obstetricians that women and babies died.

However. I'm not believing everything just yet. I'm sure more will continue to come out.

For me this is yet again an inability of us as people to get off our individual ideologies, whether it be pro hospital, or pro home birth, and talk to women about their choices in a evidence based, reasonable way.

Why do we have one extreme or the other?

The home birthing movement was partly in response to the over medicalisation of birth. Women used to be told to lie on their backs and put their feet in stirrups, these things were easier for the mostly male doctors. Over use of forceps. No respect for a mothers wish to give birth in an environment that she has more control over. Midwives were looked down on compared to obstetricians and many c sections performed without trying other methods first.

On the other hand, I agree in some sections it’s got out of hand in the natural birthing movement. Where tolerating pain without drugs is seen as a badge of honour.

I chose to have a home birth for my first child because I was surrounded by that ideology. However I was just up the road from the hospital, and I planned for pain relief and emergencies. However I now think home birth for a first child is too risky, maybe the second after an uncomplicated first birth. I ended up being in hospital anyway being induced, and had an emergency c section and even then the doctors made quite a fuss that they were so sorry, that they know I was desperate for a home birth but that I needed intervention, that I must be devastated.. I was shocked, in no way was I devastated and I hope to goodness they didn’t delay medical interventions on that basis. Why they would think I wouldn’t want anything to keep me and the baby safe is beyond me. It was if I had ‘crazy person’ on my notes!

I'm with @BertrandRussell on this.

I think few people would argue for natural birth at all costs, but many women would prefer a natural birth. I'm one of them. I'm not very good with injections and I was far more scared of an epidural than the pain of giving birth without one. I was also very anxious not to have to lie down with my legs in stirrups as I'd have felt very vulnerable and out of control. I wanted to be free to walk around.

I suspect that some of this was a reaction against the way in which my sister described her labours in the US, (both vaginal births with epidurals). It may also have been a reaction to my mother's story of giving birth first time round (in 1960). She was on her back for ages making no progress. The GP decided she would never give birth naturally and went off to find an anaesthetist so he could do a caesarean. She thought he was wrong and, while he was out, she got down and squatted, giving birth a few minutes later, just as he was coming back into the room.

My first birth plan made clear that I didn't want any pain relief other than gas and air. But it also made clear that I reserved the right to change my mind during labour. I was lucky that my labour was short, though painful (back to back). I don't consider myself to be 'woo', but I had my second child at home in a water pool, which was a far more pleasant experience. The midwives made clear in advance that I would not be allowed to give birth at home in certain circumstances, and I agreed that I would go into hospital if eg I was more than 2 weeks early, or had high blood pressure. And if my midwife had advised me during labour to go into hospital, I'd have done that. I wanted to do it my way, but not at all costs!

The key thing is choice. I weighed up the pros and cons, and considered the risks of a home birth (we live at least 20 minutes from the hospital). I didn't consider my choices to be intrinsically any better than anyone else's. And I absolutely agree that no woman should feel pressured into anything, or be made to guilty for the choices she makes, or if she couldn't have the birth she wanted.

I know I'd have been disappointed if I had not been able to have the birth I wanted (I'd planned a water birth first time round, but didn't have one) but I wouldn't have felt guilty.

Midwives have to cope with short staffed hospitals and run between two or three labouring women.

Christ yes. I remember in the middle of my second, sitting with the midwife who'd been helping me get a clear trace (whilst not making me be in even more pain in the easiest for them, reclined in bed position) so they could see DS2 was OK. An inhuman wail went up from the next room, and she looked up in alarm, and I grabbed the sensors she was holding and told her to just go, I'd be fine!

For some women, they'd prefer a bit of pain to the feeling that anaesthetic gives (ie. me - over a threshold, sure give me the drugs, but until I ask for them, I'm doing OK. I even prefer getting dental work done without anaesthetic if I can, because I really dislike the the feeling). For some women, they'd prefer the drugs early and plentiful. As the people in pain, I really think the only person that should be deciding (within safe limits) is the woman in labour.

I completely agree with you @Clearnightsky
The balance is key.

I actually told strong against a pushy consultant who was demanding induction. The midwives agreed she was being ridiculous considering my third pregnancy as following exactly as my previous two babies.

All three were water births with nothing more than G&A and all three were over 9lb. So I am defiantly pro natural for me.
But at no point were me or the babies in danger. DH was given strict instructions that if either of us was ever in danger that he was to tell me and we would do whatever necessary to get us all out safe.

I would love a piece of research to be undertaken to really understand people's attitudes to the methods of birth and how this tallies up with the evidence around risks and outcomes.

For example, I think a lot of people are more accepting of c-sections where they are medically indicated or needed to save the life of the child or mother when there are issues during an attempted vaginal birth, but I think large swathes of society do not view them as an equally valid birth choice. The sheer number of posters on this thread that insist that natural is best or safest certainly implies this. It's therefore easy to see how the NHS can make policy decisions around restricting access to ELCSs without there being a massive public outcry. It is all quite sinister really when you think of the sheer amount of biased information that the NHS spews around this issue that will be indoctrinating women to not only not choose an ELCS for themselves but judge other women who make this choice.

A new mum on the same ward as me said she repeatedly asked for an epidural and was repeatedly told she would need to wait a little longer until she was then told it was too late.

Most women don’t need or want stronger pain relief than gas and air though do they

I feel these two statements are contradictory.

While the stats may not show a high usage of drugs in childbirth, it should not be assumed it's because mothers are choosing NOT to have drugs.

I, too, was made to wait for pain relief. In fact, I had no pain relief at all in the end due to a fast birth. I warned the MW it could be a fast birth as my family tend that way, even though I was attempting VBAC, with 1 DC already.

A few mothers I know also said they'd been made to wait for pain relief.

If I knew then what I know now, I'd have insisted on ELCS 2nd time around.

I do also agree with above. This idea that mothers have to be in agonising pain until a beloved acceptable time is a bit disturbing to me. Pain thresholds are different. Everyone's mental health is different.

Yanbu. I wanted to avoid another c-section with my youngest because I found the lack of decent pain relief afterwards really hard after my first c-section. I think that women should have more choices in how they give birth with no judgment or shame. Also a healthy mum and healthy baby is what we should all be aiming for. The amount of people who said "a healthy baby is what matters" when I was in hdu with sepsis made me feel awful and like I didn't matter. It was also rubbish as ds was very poorly in nicu as well so not exactly a healthy baby.

YABU if you think an epidural can be magicked up whenever you want it. You need a midwife free to provide 1:1 care, you need a birthing room free, and you need an anaesthetist to be free. The amount of abuse I got as a midwife for the delay in an epidural being put in was horrible, I gave whatever else I could, but realistically I couldn’t do more. It probably looked/felt like I was ignoring pain, I wasn’t, but I physically couldn’t insert the epidural!

Each to their own. Like breast feeding/bottle feeding. INFORMED is best. (But I had 2 home births with no pain relief and could cheerfully do it again so I guess I'm bias)

Most women don’t need or want stronger pain relief than gas and air though do they

Am I the only person on Earth who cannot use gas and air? It does FA for pain and makes me vomit every single time I use it.

@OrangeSlices998, isn't that then all the more reason for midwives not to try to talk women out of an epidural/convince them to put it off for as long as possible? Surely knowing there may be a long wait means the request should be put in as soon as the patient first requests it. Which is unfortunately not the experience of a lot of women on this thread and others like it.

I'm an advocate for neither medical intervention and natural birth. I'm an advocate for women being supported and respected in making their own decisions during birth.

I agree, @Contraceptionismyfriend. I had pethidine, then gas and air with ds1, who I had in hospital, and then I had home births with ds2 and ds3, and had a minimal amount of gas and air with ds2.

The labours were all very slow (37.5 , 30 and 24 hours respectively), but I coped better with the second and third ones because I had more experience of labour and because I was more relaxed because I was at home.

When I was doing my nurse training, there was a study of pain relief following surgery, that showed that, when pain relief was given early, when the patient began to feel discomfort, it worked better than if they waited until the pain was severe, because by then, the patient was tense which made the pain worse, and the pain relief didn’t work as fast or as well. I do wonder if this is applicable to labour too - if the woman is as comfortable as possible, she won’t tense up, so labour will probably go better and she might not need the heavier pain relief until later.

We need to look at it holistically - not just drugs for pain relief, but seeing the woman as a whole. Again it is a study of post surgical patients, but a study found that people who were well informed before surgery had lower stress markers in their blood post op, and needed less analgesia. So surely if a woman is well informed about what is happening to her, and what is going to happen, and feels well supported, listened to and in control, this will help her be less stressed which will have positive effects on her labour and pain levels.

Birthing pools can help with the pain of labour, as can massage - but these require resources which our cash strapped NHS doesn’t have - and women and babies are suffering as a result.

Yanbu. My mum (a daughter of doctors) left midwifery because she was so horrified by the "anti intervention" /anti doctors agenda that so many were pushing.

My friend got persuaded to go against doctors advice and have a natural birth despite enormous risks. The risks predicted occured and her baby died at birth.

I was horrified in both my pregnancies at the amount of emotive language employed to push women towards natural birth.

There is a major problem and lives are being lost.