to suggest that Mumsnet is quite sexist against men?

[Eckhart]

I don't know if it's just the threads I've been on. I don't know how many men use Mumsnet.

Sexism either way makes me equally uncomfortable. How do other Mumsnet users feel about this?

Quite a busy world after all.

The vast majority of posters on most threads do not @ anyone! What a bizarre thing to say when it's so easily diprovable.

pan2
You mean there's another man on MN who sensibly manages to distinguish between some generalised or poor advice and actual sexism and had concluded that a MN isn't sexist?


It's almost like most people can manage to have reasonable debate across a range of thread without becoming all "poor menz / women are meanies".

Phew...Just caught up with the thread...that was a slog!

I don't believe that MN is 'sexist' in so much as sexism (at least by my knowledge of the definition) is a term to describe real-life discrimination. Whilst people may express sexist opinions on here, I don't believe an internet forum can inherently be sexist.

I do think that some of the attitudes to men on this forum are quite unreasonable and do contain a lot of double-standards (which I think is what the OP was getting at). However, you'll find a small number of people with extreme views on any forum. It's just typically the ones with the most extreme views tend to shout the loudest and the most frequently.

I must say that I'm impressed with the way the OP has stuck with this thread despite the abuse. I also learned the word 'Sealioning" today which is a new one to me (I'll add it to "Whataboutery" and file it under 'terms I will NEVER use!').

What I noticed about these types of debates follow the same trend:

A: Do you think that men get a hard time on MN?
B: Awwww...Poor menz*. Maybe us women should play nicely even though men are violent abusers
A: That wasn't really my point. Assuming a man isn't a violent abuser, shouldn't he be entitled to an opinion.
B: Oh right...so you're a 'NAMALT' sypathiser
A: Errr...Buy most men AREN'T like this.
B: Well the good men need to fix the bad ones then
A: Why and How?
B: Because...they 'as a class' [shudders] are a danger to all women
A: But most of the men I know are good role models and do stick up for women
B: They need to do more otherwise they're sympathisers.
C, D, E, F & G: "Don't listen to A, he's a man who supports misogyny and doesn't care about violence against women"
A: Err....that's not what I sa...
B,C,D,E,F & G: "Sympathiser!" "Sealion!" "Gaslighting" "NAMALTer" "Poor Menz"
A: I'll be off then...
B: See? We were right all along...well done everyone, we've got our echo chamber back!

...and so it continues.

Can I just ask the purpose of the word 'menz'? Is it a reference to anything in particular (not up on popular culture) or is it just a MN word designed to be derogatory to anyone male JUST for being male (as is my understanding).

As a side-note, sexism against men does exist, I'm not saying it's historically (or even currently) as prolific but, in certain industries, it does exist.

PBo83
Sealioning and whataboutery were new to me until I saw people explain them on the feminism board and I realised those posters absolutely had a point.

There's loads of posts and threads that seem to go along the lines of:

OP: why is Mumsnet so mean to men/anti men / sexist to men (not "sometimes some men get a hard time on some threads", even this one it's about sexism being both ways and MN being sexist towards men)

Other posters: it's not and you're being quite goady really. There's not a hive mind here. There's lots of disagreement.

OP: but there's loads of people who are mean to men, it's like a hive mind and nobody can disagree otherwise the mean ones shout at them. There's loads of sexism to men...

Replies:

• comments on structure inequality
• accepts there's some knee jerk LTB / some double standards in places
• some healthy debate between posters about if there's a double standard

OP: yes but I'm not being goady, I just think there's people with extreme views...

OP: continues to claim there's some MN hive mind despite the very thread showing otherwise. OP will then ask repeated questions or argue in bad faith and if challenged claim "but why are you all so mean and defensive... I'm only asking questions. See! See! You are all irrationally sexist to men.

Replies: challenge the OP

OP: begins whataboutery
Eg. But what about women... Some women can be awful at work/to other women. Why don't you spend your time telling them to do more instead of having a go at people like my DH who is nice?
But what about the good men?
But what about...

Other posters: challenge and debate still knowing the OP has zero interest in debate because they're only interested in showing how poor the men are and how mean MN is.

Then come the claims of "I can't win... You're all mean and nasty... Look everyone, I just asked questions and all these extremists had a go at me. It's proof MN is mean and nasty and full of women who hate men and people with other opinions"

And I'm saying this as some who does think there are some double standards from some posters on here on certain topics. But Mumsnet isnt sexist towards men, there isn't a hive mind and there's a peculiar regularity of male posters and fan club women who seem to want to make the same old threads time and time again about this mysterious sexist hive mind.

Can I just ask the purpose of the word 'menz'? Is it a reference to anything in particular (not up on popular culture) or is it just a MN word designed to be derogatory to anyone male JUST for being male (as is my understanding).

It is not an MN thing. Think it is intended as a caricature of a particular complaint / response / argument. Bit like "whataboutery".

I do think there are plenty of individual females who hold prejudices against men, here. And no amount of pointing out how men "as a class" have more "institutional power" than women "as a class" has any effect on the fact that you, Mrs Jane Bloggs, hold sexist prejudices against men. And no effect on whether by saying or doing X, you are demonstrating your sexism.

@JAPAB

Thanks for the explanation, it wasn't a loaded question, it's just the only place I'd heard 'Menz' used.

I tell you what OP, go on a male centric forum and tell them they’re being sexist towards women (because I can guarantee there will be some far more sexist posts there), and then come back and tell us what they said.

^Hahaha please do what AngelsSins says

I tell you what OP, go on a male centric forum and tell them they’re being sexist towards women (because I can guarantee there will be some far more sexist posts there), and then come back and tell us what they said.

Isn't that whataboudery? There are always other people off elsewhere doing something worse.

It's more about the reaction you would get. But, to be fair, I don't know what that reaction would be. Maybe it would be measured and coherent like many of these posts are. Why don't you try it?

BTW:

Sealioning (also spelled sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment which consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity.

From Wikipedia.

Just for some insight into this thread/OP ...

It used to all be on the Feminist boards. Posters just don’t put things in the right sections anymore and just lump everything together in AIBU for the highest traffic.

I tell you what OP, go on a male centric forum and tell them they’re being sexist towards women (because I can guarantee there will be some far more sexist posts there), and then come back and tell us what they said.

So, racist posts are ok on MN then because if you go on certain other websites you'll find really awful racist stuff, is that what you think really?

So, racist posts are ok on MN then because if you go on certain other websites you'll find really awful racist stuff, is that what you think really?

That’s not the equivalent though, is it? The equivalent is going on a space that centres black people and the experience of being black, and complaining that it’s racist to white people.

I'm talking about the argument that whatever happens on here isn't as bad as on some other sites so basically stop complaining.

The fact that other sites are worse doesn't matter does it? If it's wrong, it's wrong, no matter where it is happening.

That’s not what the PP was suggesting though - the suggestion was that the responses to this op were more measured than would be elsewhere.

Would you go onto the website I described above and post that way?

You're missing the point hear They're pointing out, quite reasonably, that people are all too quick to turn up on MN giving it "poor menz, women on MN are sexist meanies", and yet the likelihood is they wouldn't even consider going into male dominated spaces raising issues of genuine sexism, because they already don't challenge male views on this thread.

As ever when it comes to discussions of sexism, certain groups of people all too conveniently feel the need to push at women and tell them to be nice.

I'd rather be mean ...

Being nice has been a massive error for women recently.

Dp you wipe their precious noses as well OP?

Being nice seems to be one way of saying "sit back and don't ruffle too many feathers..."

3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.

11th rule of misogyny: Basic pattern recognition skills are cruel and evil when they hurt men's feelings.

12th rule of misogyny: whatever women suffer from, men suffer from more.

I can't remember who introduced that list to me but they really made my day when I saw them for the first time.

I come on Mumsnet just to moan about men because if I do it on other sites I will get attacked by men. No that is not exactly true! I come on here to advise other women and discuss parenting and life problems and I find other women to be more understanding than men .... this is just a fact of life some men can be understanding but a lot will brush off our problems as "womens problems" My own husband has actually told me to pull my self together when I was very ill with thyroid disease because he couldn't understand why I felt so ill. Yes there are some men haters on here but there are also some very wise and understanding women.