to suggest that Mumsnet is quite sexist against men?

[Eckhart]

I don't know if it's just the threads I've been on. I don't know how many men use Mumsnet.

Sexism either way makes me equally uncomfortable. How do other Mumsnet users feel about this?

@Sakura7 Thank you.

Equality

Imagine a football match. The teams are fairly matched but the ref is ridiculously, comically biased. One team is awarded a free kick for any tiny fault (real or imagined) by the other side, while the other has goals disallowed on spurious grounds, players sent off for objecting or even being too good and therefore clearly cheating.

At first, it seems maybe the winning team is just stronger. But by the end of the first half the bias is so unignorable a change is refs is demanded.

The new ref is scrupulously fair. It should be a level playing field. But the second team is a long way behind on points and has fewer players.

At the end of the game, the initially favoured team wins by a landslide. The fans of the second team are miserable and demoralised. "What's your problem?" say the first fans. "You complained you weren't being treated fairly so we got a fair ref on you still lost! You just can't accept some people are better at football and others are better at something else"

So your point is that there will never be equality because we currently and historically have/had a patriarchal set up?

It's a very good analogy, by the way.

My point is if the starting point is not equal, equal treatment doesn't lead to an equal end point. Before equal treatment there has to be a period where the pre-existing inequality is dealt with, and that means some individuals in the previously favoured group lose out vs the previously unfavoured group (stem opportunities for girls being an example)

I totally agree, Blibbyblobby.

It's not fair, but neither is the alternative. And it is at least a step on the way to fair.

Now society may feel this period of unfairness to individuals while the system as a whole rebalances is a cost not worth paying. I can't change that. But i think it's important to recognise that a decision to prioritise equality of treatment here and now is actually a decision to perpetuate inequality.

So your point is that there will never be equality because we currently and historically have/had a patriarchal set up?

Not never, only if the patriarchy continues. Which is why women are suspicious of those who argue there is no patriarchy and that men and women are equal in todays society. It's gaslighting on the highest scale.

@SpamChaudFroid I agree, it would be a very skewed way of seeing our current situation.

I'm not going to get in the argument of replies on the relationships board.
What's really frustrating though is that on the feminism board there hasn't yet been a thread that focuses women without several posters piping up with "what about the men".

It's impossible to centre women when the discussion is so often derailed by NAMALT, what about the men,women do it too etc.
If we refuse to engage we're man haters and sexist and what not.

It's privilege at it's best or worst. Men don't even have to fight their own fights,women do it for them and shut down discussions between other women when they try to talk about women's issues.

It's not that I don't care about men's mental health,violence,suicide,safety etc. it's that I want to talk about tjose issues when they concern women and girls, without having to explain every single time why men are not included.

There are some sexist posters on here for sure, both men and women

I don't think it is institutionally sexist though, at all, and i came to post here expecting it to be, cos that's what I'd heard from others

Have posted here with a couple of accounts (forgot password and username for the first one) for more years than i care to remember and mostly found it to be balanced and informative.

Any public place has it's dickheads though and this is no exception

@PanicAndRun I agree with all of that. But MN isn't a women's forum. It's for parents, male and female, so it's reasonable to expect conflicting viewpoints.

@easyandy101 Yes, that's a good point. A few people have commented that there is no 'hive mind', and you're right, there are definitely sexist people here both ways.

The posters on this thread have been roughly half and half, slightly in favour of YABU to my OP, but no massive majority either way.

...there will never be equality because we currently and historically have/had a patriarchal set up?

Yes, I totally agree with this.

I also take issue with your use of the phrase 'sexist against men'.

Discrimination requires power, therefore it is only ever possible for the group with power (men in this context) to discriminate against women. The oppressed group (women) cannot discriminate against men, as they lack sufficient power to do so.

See also 'racism against white people', 'Heterophobia' etc

The whole idea of having a men's day is quite distasteful tbh.

It's not that I don't care about men's mental health,violence,suicide,safety etc. it's that I want to talk about tjose issues when they concern women and girls, without having to explain every single time why men are not included.

But this is a thread about men and women are on here saying it's not on to discuss it. Another thread discussing a statistic about men as victims of domestic violence - posters complaining that women aren't being centred. A man with a thread talking about problems in his marriage - women bringing it around to how badly treated some women are. So, on threads about men it's ok for women to try and redirect the conversation to be about women buy it can't happen if the thread is about women? Is that what you are saying? If so, that to me is a double standard.

Some of the comments on the DV thread are disgusting and we would all be raging if the comments were made about female victims of dv yet apparently it's fine to deny that men can be victims too or to accuse male victims of lying.

I don't know how you can justify examples like that by saying " because patriarchy".

@DCOkeford Do you really feel that there will never be equality? Does that mean we shouldn't be aiming for it? And if not, what do you think we should be aiming for, given that we all accept that there needs to be change?

It may have a tagline for parents by parents but MN has led the way in numerous campaigns for womens rights, let toys be toys, I believe her, and currently whether it likes it or not MN is at the forefront of the discussion around sex segregated spaces. To me it's very clear that the ethos of the site is to centre women. Some people might not like that but for many of us its why we are here.

@birdsdestiny Yes. I was surprised at the balance of YANBU and YABU on this thread actually.

I do think it's a bit odd that it's called Mumsnet when it's for all parents. I'm assuming that must be something that's developed organically.

How is the let toys be toys campaign a female centric campaign?

I should say it's a feminist campaign, and absolutely challenging gender stereotypes also helps boys but it was led by women.
I will also say that from what I understand that the UK is very much unusual in its fight for women's rights with regard to sex segregated spaces, I think that MN has been key to this. I dont think this would have happened without a predominantly female site to discuss these issues.

I think it is mainly why we are ahead of places like Canada and America in terms of organisation around this issue. Although obviously there are some very brave campaigners in thise countries. Without this space many organisations currently bravely fighting for sex segregated spaces would not have been able to organise so freely.

Discrimination requires power, therefore it is only ever possible for the group with power (men in this context) to discriminate against women. The oppressed group (women) cannot discriminate against men, as they lack sufficient power to do so

That only makes sense when you take look at the actions of an entire sector vs another sector but on an individual level in reality power balances change at any given time or situation and thus it's a weird way to look at individual experiences.

I'd say that's more relevant to racism than sexism though, but you cited that as an example

I don’t think it is.

I do think language is important, if your opening post isn’t up to standards, it probably won’t end well. Sometimes a bit confusing: I got called unkind because I don’t think a master’s degree is a big achievement that warrants excessive celebrations. My perspective. It is however good form to refer to the amount of tax you pay. Or calling French people ‘Frogs’- I don't think that's okay. All about perspective, if you’re arguing with somebody whose just been left by their spouse you’ll probably get hard-line responses. And so on.

We're sick and tired being asked what about the men. We've expressed that view and feelings in many forms , with various arguments and in varied formats.

You're still asking what about the men(even when even the men don't ask it, and have expressed a contrary opinion) .

This is pointless.

I agree. By my reckoning the stats for the males on this thread is about 90% YABU. It might be higher but the effort to add it up was too much for me.

We don't know many posters sex, so it's impossible to estimate.

The true figure may also be lower than your 90% guess.

We have no way of knowing.