to suggest that Mumsnet is quite sexist against men?

[Eckhart]

I don't know if it's just the threads I've been on. I don't know how many men use Mumsnet.

Sexism either way makes me equally uncomfortable. How do other Mumsnet users feel about this?

Not accepting "he doesn't see mess" , "he doesn't hear the baby", bumbling husband stereotype etc isn't us being vipers and horrible. If anything is the posters posting those antiquated views that do a disservice to men.

Discussing male violence doesn't need a NAMALT in the title and every other post.

Refusing to accept flimsy,made up, mysoginistic excuses for abuse,harassment,sexism,rape etc . Doesn't mean we see a predator in every single man.

Being pro women is not being anti men.

Panic exactly this. I don’t know a single feminist who would say ‘men just can’t look after children’ or ‘men can’t brush their daughter’s hair’.

Quick update: over half of rape crisis centres, safe spaces for women traumatised by men, in the most vulnerable time of their lives, who require to be around only other women, are now open to men. Well there we are.

Who opened them to men? Are they run by men? Who made the decision to admit men? Women who are running them possibly? If so, how is that the fault of men? It's the fault of whoever took the decision

Eh, do you think rape crisis centres just got it into their heads one day and made a decision to let men in?

I don’t know a single feminist who would say ‘men just can’t look after children’ or ‘men can’t brush their daughter’s hair’.

Who here is saying this?

Individual men can absolutely call out acts of sexism.
Individual men can absolutely request flexible working.
Individual men can absolutely challenge procedures for promotion.
Individual men can absolutely challenge situations where female colleague's dedication to the job is questioned for working her hours

And yet you're still very much "yeah but some women aren't good bosses... By talking about men you're ignoring that some women (who are already in a minority of women in positions of power) might not be great".

It's hardly surprising some women are fairly shit at promoting equality when this thread is full of examples where women are trying to downplay issues affecting women.

This thread is fascinating because I've disagreed with Jacques on a range of threads but am totally with her on this (despite claims from the poor menz posters that nobody can disagree on MN)

There's very much an approach that happens on most threads by the "but poor men.. / whataboutery..." types.

@Sakura7 I've seen before from some of the posters on this thread.

Posters A makes a (simple,small) list of what men could easily do to improve things . Some of the posters on here came up with excuses as to why that can't happen,it has nothing to do with them etc.

One poster's reply on here to my reductive,small list was "well my husband doesn't do it" . It's dismissing and completely refusing to look at the bigger picture.

Some of us are concerned with more than just "my husband" and our own relationships .

Yes lots of people have lovely husbands etc etc, we are able to see beyond that. And the men we know are able to do that too. For example the numerous men who have come on this thread to disagree with the OP.

Yeah it's funny why none of this posters have questioned the males for their opinion or attacked them for disagreeing.

This whole thread has been about a wider societal structure. It’s only the posters who reduce it down to their immediate vicinity and are arguing that it doesn’t affect them so isnt important are the ones arguing that women are as awful as men are. (The statistics tell a different story, but if you can’t see it it, haven’t experienced it, it isn’t relevant right?)

There's an interesting thread at the moment where someone has tried to suggest their husband is lazy and a man child and there's loads of posters defending the husband. Man hating MN I tell you!

Panic because they're men and the first rule of being a "MN hates men and any woman who likes men" poster is thou must not question men because they're men.

I have a lovely partner. I have lovely sons.

I still know Male violence is an issue which needs addressing urgently. Oddly, so do they.

Wasn't the OP of this thread recently on another thread dismissing claims of male violence and intimidation by saying "yeah but women can be violent too".

Yes. 11th rule of misogyny:
'Whatever women suffer from, it is worse when it happens to men.'

It's hardly surprising some women are fairly shit at promoting equality when this thread is full of examples where women are trying to downplay issues affecting women.

Guessing I'm one of the posters you're talking about here. The OP asked if sexism towards men exists on MN. I have seen examples of it and posted to say as much. That does not mean for one moment that I don't want equality (of course I bloody do) or that male violence should be swept under the carpet (it needs harsher punishments than we currently have, and victims should be supported). What I'm saying is that you should hold responsible the people who are actually responsible.

I don't recognise this persona of a thug like, porn watching, sexist 'laddish' shit dad in any of the men I'm close to. The men I know do speak up for women, don't engage in laddish behaviour, and treat women with respect.

I very much support improvements in women's rights and have campaigned hard in support of pro-women policies, so I'm not a defender of misogyny, at all. I'm simply defending decent people who don't deserve to be slurred, whether they're male or female. Nuance seems to be missing in this argument, and it's just a big pile on against men, full stop.

Statistically men are more likely to be attacked than women.

This is true. But their attacker is more likely to be another male.

Anyway, I think the OP has a point, but I think using the word 'sexist' has got everyone's back up. I'd hope it goes without saying that women are affected in multiple aspects of life by sexism, much more than men are. This is so obvious it doesn't need further comment.

Is MN biased against men though? Sometimes I think it is. I think this is probably natural, MN is largely women and we will naturally relate and empathise with another woman's position and point of view. But I've see men be flamed for nothing, and women who are clearly BU be given far more than the benefit of the doubt.

The exception to this is where posters assert a man must be depressed or have ASD when they are clearly just behaving like an arse, which is pretty offensive.

The statistics tell a different story, but if you can’t see it it, haven’t experienced it, it isn’t relevant right

Its also very telling on which statistics some seek to focus on. Focus on really violent crime as a whole and unsurprisingly you will see that they are committed mostly by men. Focus on men as a whole and you will see few commit really violent crimes. Your focus, your narrative.

I don't recognise this persona of a thug like, porn watching, sexist 'laddish' shit dad in any of the men I'm close to. The men I know do speak up for women, don't engage in laddish behaviour, and treat women with respect.

So.......they are taking responsibility for supporting women? Or do they do all this just to pat themselves on the back for being ‘good men’?

Sakura7
No actually. Though I would disagree with you on the idea that some posters being a bit sweeping at times equals sexism. I find the whole "it's sexist towards men" to be awkward and clumsy as "but black people in the UK can be racist to white people". Both seem to be used as a way to minimising or dismissing the very real systemic oppression and discrimination towards vulnerable and marginalised groups.

I've also said throughout this thread that I see double standards on some threads.
I just don't believe that some double standards from some posts equals "MN is sexist against men" and the absolute crap spouted throughout this thread by those intent on trying to prove how mean and nasty the awful women are.

Aaaand we're back to NAMALT.

When we talk about men as a class we don't talk about anyone's husband,father,son,uncle in particular.

Sakura's husband doesn't need a special mention for how awesome he is, neither is Hearhooves ' husband or Jaques' fuck buddy. Just because they're awesome doesn't mean that male violence isn't real. It doesn't mean that men as a class can't or shouldn't do more to improve things.

And I shouldn't have to bloody type men as a class every single time just in case someone gets all hurty and offended on behalf of their awesome husband.

NAMALT - loud n proud !

Panic

Well said. We're back to "not my Nigel."

I am not asking for anyone to get special attention, just to move away from sweeping generalisations.

And I shouldn't have to bloody type men as a class every single time just in case someone gets all hurty and offended on behalf of their awesome husband

Funnily enough, my DH doesn't get his boxers in a twist when we discuss feminist issues. His friends don't get offended and need to claim NAMALT when issues of equality are discussed. Their actions demonstrate a commitment to equality and yet they still don't go whining if people are discussing social or structural issues linked to misogyny.

It's almost like they're sensible men who are confident and comfortable in their own position that they KNOW the difference between men as a class in discussion and being personally held responsible for a sex attacker's behaviour, and they don't have the silly "yeah but whataboutery..." that comes with the "poor menz" agenda.

If I'd done a vote, so far it would be:

YABU: 52
YANBU: 45

I wish I had done a vote, it'd have been much quicker than counting them all which (I can't believe I just) did.

A vote can be different as sometimes people stay off thread and just vote, not sure if you can add it now though

Yes, Marsha I'm sure you're right. I was just really curious as some posters have been so vocal and posted so many times that I couldn't see the balance clearly.

When we talk about men as a class we don't talk about anyone's husband,father,son,uncle in particular.

Then I don't understand why we are being told that individual men should step in to stop violence, should speak up at work, should tell their friends off for making sexist jokes... Who are the "men" if not individuals?

If people aren't meant to be talking about individual men why are people saying that individual men should be doing X,y and z?

Some posters are giving lists of what individual men should be doing. Others, me included, are saying we don't know men who do those things because the men we know are decent and then get the thread police telling us off because it isn't about my husband or the men I know.

Make your minds up. Do you want us to discuss individual men or men as a class?