to suggest that Mumsnet is quite sexist against men?

[Eckhart]

I don't know if it's just the threads I've been on. I don't know how many men use Mumsnet.

Sexism either way makes me equally uncomfortable. How do other Mumsnet users feel about this?

You cannot say that someone isn't a good man because they fear someone pulling a knife and stabbing them. That's outrageous

Of course I can. I don’t think well of a man who wouldn’t intervene in a kid getting sexually harassed. That’s my opinion.

You are, of course, free to disagree.

It can't be said enough, being pro women is not being anti men.
Being aware of what damage men do as a class is not hating men.

Being fucking sick and tired to answer the question "what about the men" every time a women's issue is discussed doesn't mean we don't care about the men.

Not accepting "he doesn't see mess" , "he doesn't hear the baby", bumbling husband stereotype etc isn't us being vipers and horrible. If anything is the posters posting those antiquated views that do a disservice to men.

Discussing male violence doesn't need a NAMALT in the title and every other post.

Refusing to accept flimsy,made up, mysoginistic excuses for abuse,harassment,sexism,rape etc . Doesn't mean we see a predator in every single man.

Being pro women is not being anti men.

Good men do

Is this not the very definition of toxic masculinity that so many on here find objectionable. The expectation that 'good' men will be knights to wade in and subdue a situation? I have seen on far too many occasions the cry of 'what are you going to about it' aimed at a bloke to intervene in a situation.

Most blokes are very ill equipped to to deal with or indeed met out violence and shaming 'good men' into putting themselves into physical harms is just wrong.

Of course I can. I don’t think well of a man who wouldn’t intervene in a kid getting sexually harassed. That’s my opinion.

Why have you suddenly decided to narrow the discussion to "a kid bring sexually harassed"? We were talking about all forms of violence/altercations. Why just suddenly decide that we're only talking about this precise situation?

Panicandrun - yes!

It can't be said enough, being pro women is not being anti men.

I've not seen anyone say that it is.

I've seen people take issue with "all men are shit" "all good men are responsible for anything that bad men do". Those are the things I'm taking issue with.

How does being pro women mean that you have to say all men are shit?

Well this has become enlightening.

Because some individual women can hold power it's wrong to expect individual men to play their part in moving to a more equitable society? The fact men can be victims of violence from other men is being used as some challenge to entirely valid points about male violence.

No wonder systemic, social, and cultural barriers affecting women stay in place when there's women suggesting it's wrong to expect men to act in favour of equality.

Why just suddenly decide that we're only talking about this precise situation?

Because that is one very pertinent to me as I’ve explained repeatedly on the thread. Are you not willing to comment on that because it’s not your anecdote?

Fact is, you’re happy with the men in your life, I’m happy with the men in mine. We all have our own deal-breakers etc.

Is this not the very definition of toxic masculinity that so many on here find objectionable. The expectation that 'good' men will be knights to wade in and subdue a situation?

Exactly. I used to take great issue with mums telling my son to look after their dd if they went out. Of course I don't expect him to use her as a human shield to protect him but no, his job isn't to act as her body guard. They both need to be sensible, not get blind drunk, be responsible for each other and make good choices - so know how they are getting home, don't go.off and leave the other one alone, not miss the last train, stay in.public spaces etc etc.

The expectation that 'good' men will be knights to wade in and subdue a situation?

Interesting choice of language. Everyone seems to think that this intervening is a massive gesture. There are a myriad of small ways one can intervene in a situation to help someone out without being overly aggressive/antagonistic.

Because that is one very pertinent to me as I’ve explained repeatedly on the thread. Are you not willing to comment on that because it’s not your anecdote?

I'm very happy to discuss your anecdote but you should make that clear, you don't just jump into a discussion and hijack a reply that was about a general situation, apply it to your specific situation and then yell "aha". That isn't engaging in good faith.

If it's a child bring sexually abused then anyone witnessing it should step in.

There are a myriad of small ways one can intervene in a situation to help someone out without being overly aggressive/antagonistic.

How?

Let's face it it doesn't even start or stop with "intervene when a woman/kid is being harassed/assaulted/raped".

I've seen many times on here posters vehemently rejecting lists of the little things men could do to improve things. Explanations as to why they couldn't possibly even think about it.

So I'm not surprised some find abhorrent the idea that we might expect a man to intervene when another man is abusing someone, when the idea of them not watching porn,not engaging in banter or rape/sexist jokes or actually being involved in their kids day to day lives is "impossible".

How?

Seriously.....are you seriously unable to think of any? I mean I’d be happy to answer you if I thought you were in good faith, but I am strongly doubting that.

And now I’m quite sure you’ll say “ah you can’t answer then”. Id be disappointed in myself if I didn’t have the emotional intelligence to consider what one could do that isn’t violent or aggressive.

Because some individual women can hold power it's wrong to expect individual men to play their part in moving to a more equitable society?

Nope. Everyone in power should be playing their part to equalise society. Men and women.

I cannot see how you can legitimately argue that it's men's fault whilst turning a blind eye to the failure of women in power to do anything.

In fact at work, it's often the women managers who are the harshest to other women. They've juggled work and children so how dare you ask for any support. That happens often.

That isn't engaging in good faith

Oh now, your agenda is showing.

Enjoy.

Oh now, your agenda is showing.

So you've said.

Funny how as soon as you are proven wrong you simply disengage isn't it?

Funny how as soon as you are proven wrong you simply disengage isn't it?

Yup. Called it. You didn’t disappoint.

I will of course enjoy reading the contributions of the more erudite posters.

Seriously.....are you seriously unable to think of any? I mean I’d be happy to answer you if I thought you were in good faith, but I am strongly doubting that.

Yes, I'm being serious. Explain how you can intervene in a man being abusive towards a woman without risking the situation exploding? Or a woman towards a man? Or a gang fighting? How do men intervene in these situations?

JacquesHammer

Cool beans.

I'll take it that you can't answer then.

Are you demonstrating the catty for us Jo.

when the idea of them not watching porn,not engaging in banter or rape/sexist jokes or actually being involved in their kids day to day lives is "impossible".

But if you don't associate with men like that, and your DH doesn't either, then it's a moot point isn't it?

My DH doesn't watch porn, doesn't engage in sexist/rape jokes and has always been far more involved in our children's lives than I am. He also works 60 hours a week, over 6 days whilst I work only part time, does all of the housework and shopping and cares for me because I am very unwell so.sorry if I don't join in with your man hating fest.

I cannot see how you can legitimately argue that it's men's fault whilst turning a blind eye to the failure of women in power to do anything.

And the real agenda comes out.
Ignore and minimise structural and social power and entrenched privilege by conveniently blaming women for not doing enough.

That's it ladies. Commenting on misogyny in the big wide world and wanting a sensible discussion about these issues is easily dismissed as "yeah... Yeah... But some women aren't good bosses"

Wasn't the OP of this thread recently on another thread dismissing claims of male violence and intimidation by saying "yeah but women can be violent too".

It's almost like there's a standard script for anyone who wants to tell women to place nice for the men.

LolaSmiles

And you are doing exactly what Jacques did - changing the argument to suit your own narrative.

We weren't discussing the wider societal structure. We were discussing individual men, in the workplace, calling out micro sexism, leaving meetings early and saying why, a police officer asking why a female officer was being over looked for promotion.

Don't take answers to.one issue and then apply them to all. It's disingenuous.

So I'm not surprised some find abhorrent the idea that we might expect a man to intervene when another man is abusing someone, when the idea of them not watching porn,not engaging in banter or rape/sexist jokes or actually being involved in their kids day to day lives is "impossible".

You're going to have to point out where anyone has stated that a man intervening is abhorrent, or that not watching porn/engaging in banter/being a good dad is impossible. Of course you know that's not actually the argument that anyone is making.

I agree with OP's post from earlier, it really is remarkable on this thread how some posters are deliberately misinterpreting comments and twisting them so they can go on the attack. How dare anyone point out that the men we love are thoroughly decent, kind, respectful and protective human beings who don't deserve to be vilified. How dare a man (shock horror) take exception to the vitriol.