to suggest that Mumsnet is quite sexist against men?

[Eckhart]

I don't know if it's just the threads I've been on. I don't know how many men use Mumsnet.

Sexism either way makes me equally uncomfortable. How do other Mumsnet users feel about this?

So here’s an idea, let’s do away with the behaviour in the first place, so we don’t have to go down the road of reporting.

Oh do enlighten us on how we can remove crime over night?

I work in a large store. Every single day we have people having there purses stolen. Most of the time these are elderly women who are the victims. Do you know who the perpetrators are? Women. Every time. They come in with a kid in a pram presumably as either a decoy or because they think if they're caught they will be treated more leniently. Whose to blame for that? Me? You? All women? Are we all disgusting because we aren't stopping these women from robbing people are we? So we as women, are responsible for all crimes committed by women are we? We're responsible for Rose West or Myra Hyndley? Really?

Are they rounding up the shameful bastards and explaining to them that this is Just. Not. On. ?

So men are shit because they aren't vigilantes, is that what you think?

Are you married? Is your partner out every night running the hoodlums out of town or rounding them up? What an utterly ridiculous post.

What would you advise your daughter to do in these circumstances and why?

I advise my dd to do exactly what I advise my son to do and exactly what both me and my DH do - dont walk home alone. Come home with friends, call us and we'll pick you up or get a taxi, with friends if possible. If not then using a cab firm that we know and trust.

That’s key isn’t it? The role modelling. Absolutely spot on there.

It is. So what role models do women provide then?

Should we be policing all the women who are shit role models? What's a good male role model in your eyes? A good female role model?

I think probably most men would say they would step in if someone was say, being physically attacked but that’s not good enough

Well, placing yourself in physical danger is a pretty big thing to do. I have 'stepped in' when I saw a man shouting and shoving his girlfriend in the street late one evening, by that I mean I calmly suggested that the man should not be doing what he was doing. For my efforts I got attacked by the bloke whose blows I managed to parry only to be blindsided by the women who whacked me from behind. That was a nice black eye for the next few weeks.

Men are way more likely to be victims of physical violence on the street and understandably are a bit wary of interveining in a emotionally charged situation they know nothing about.

Quick update: over half of rape crisis centres, safe spaces for women traumatised by men, in the most vulnerable time of their lives, who require to be around only other women, are now open to men. Well there we are.

Who opened them to men? Are they run by men? Who made the decision to admit men? Women who are running them possibly? If so, how is that the fault of men? It's the fault of whoever took the decision.

Men, all men, every single man, yes all men, need to start calling out the micro-aggressions that women have to deal with. Like stopping your friend in the pub from cat calling, or pulling him up if he calls someone a tart. Fight to close the gender pay gap, leave meetings early and say loudly and clearly ‘it’s for childcare reasons’. There’s a million little tiny things men (all men etc) could be doing but don’t.

I need to get off this thread because its sending my blood pressure sky high.

If men you know are cat calling in the pub or calling someone a tart then you need to change your friends. None of our male friends do this and they don't think like that.

As for fighting to close the gender pay gap or leaving meetings early - you are assuming that all men have this influence or even that they work in jobs where they have meetings or they can leave whenever they choose without getting disciplined.

Just listen to yourself. What do you do at work to close the gender pay gap? If you are a manager what do you do to support all of your staff, both parents and non parents? How do you run things so that women aren't more disadvantaged? Plenty of women bosses out there - what are they doing to change things? Can't say that I'm noticing massive changes.

I've got a senior manager who is a woman and many other female department managers. They do precisely nothing apart from toe the company line. Who needs to be telling them how wrong they are and what they need to do?

I have stepped in more with men being either verbally abusive or sexually harassing women or being racist (that time it was to a group of youngish boys) than I have ever seen a man do.

It’s common decency, surely.

Actually yes I do think in some circumstances “good” men should take some responsibility for the “not good” men. They should pull up their friends & family who discriminate against women, who make “nagging women” or even worse rape “jokes”, they should pull up the lazy ones who do sod all at home, they should make it clear such behaviour is unacceptable - why should that all be on women?

Generally speaking, the 'good' men don't hang out with or form friendships with other blokes who display the behaviour you describe. All my male friends take on their fair share of housework, pull their weight with the kids and don't expect prizes for carrying the basic tasks of being a parent or decent partner. I don't have to call them out down the pub for making rape jokes because they don't make those jokes to begin with. There is a pub near me I avoid like the plague as it is rough sithole that gets feisty on match days. I do recall some of the piss heads outside one summer catcalling women as they walked past, I did not walk over and pull them up on their behaviour as I did not fancy getting my head kicked in.

Young men are more at risk from assault than women are from sexual assault. Overwhelmingly the same perpetrator of course.
Male violence. Just as much a man’s problem as a woman’s. But women need to sort it. 🤔

I have stepped in more with men being either verbally abusive or sexually harassing women or being racist (that time it was to a group of youngish boys) than I have ever seen a man do.

At times though it's safer for a woman to intervene than a man. Men are less likely to hit a woman than they are a man so I think if a woman intervenes there is the opportunity to de escalate the situation. If a man intervenes then the attacker is quite likely to turn on him.

There's interesting experiments on line where two actors - 1 make, 1 female - stage a row that becomes physical. When it's the woman being abused men and women step in to stop the man. When it was the woman being the abuser no one stepped in and many people were laughing. Why didn't other women step in to stop her?

Men are way more likely to be victims of physical violence on the street and understandably are a bit wary of interveining in a emotionally charged situation they know nothing about.

My point is, people see ‘sticking up for women’ as one thing, ie when women need a hero. Not the micro-aggressions, the boring, ordinary, day-to-day sexism that women experience.

Men are less likely to hit a woman than they are a man

I wish I lived in this idyllic place. Where is it?

I have stepped in more with men being either verbally abusive or sexually harassing women or being racist (that time it was to a group of youngish boys) than I have ever seen a man do.

It’s common decency, surely

Jacque, I genuinely admire that you have done that. But with all due respect, in those situations a bloke interveining is more likely to get a different (violent) reaction then when a women interveins. Sadly experience has taught me this, repeatedly

Who are these people you see being violent to men, Pan?

But with all due respect, in those situations a bloke interveining is more likely to get a different (violent) reaction then when a women interveins. Sadly experience has taught me this, repeatedly

Indeed. Hence why I’ve told my 12 year old if she gets sexually harassed again, simply to pull the emergency stop alarm on the train. There is Jack shit reason when a 12 year old kid is being sexually harassed for grown men (including the guard, the one who all the posters suggest you approach for assistance) to studiously ignore it and decline requests for help.

isabellerossignol

Statistically men are more likely to be attacked than women.

I did of course report the guard to the train company. For suggesting to her that it was a “bit of fun” and they were just teasing. Apparently she misunderstood 🙄

@PanGalaticGargleBlaster you're missing the point massively.

There are thousands of situations where decent men could and should stand up for women and girls that don't involve physical violence.

I think there's an element of it being "easier" on a psychological level to play the "knight" where there's obvious abuse occurring than to step in and correct friends/family/colleagues when they make sexist comments or make sexist decisions.

My brother once stepped in regarding a situation at work (he's a police officer) regarding a woman colleague being overlooked for promotion basically because she was a single mum, he was a single dad at the time and if anything this fact had bolstered his career. He queried why she wasn't put forward for sgts exams and it became apparent it was purely down to her sex and lone parent status, yet he'd been able to take his earlier than expected. Result was she missed out on that sitting but was put forward the next time and passed. A victory you would think, well yes a small one but it was then quite some time until she was offered an actual sgts post with men being offered ahead of her even when they had passed exams later.

But the small victories are important and she was glad of the support (I must say there were others who spoke up too, but my brother was first to do so).

Things won't change until men as well as women speak up, challenge sexism and sexist policies and practices.

Things like "jokes", name calling etc may seem minor but they ALL contribute to sexist culture

OP I agree that there is a lot of what I would call double standards on here, particularly in respect of behaviour in a relationship .

PanGalaticGargleBlaster

Totally agree. Neither my partner or the other men in our friend group are like that, so there's no need to call each other out. There seem to be wild assumptions made that all men enjoy this laddish bantz culture, when that's simply not true.

When I was younger I had an ex with friends like though, and he enjoyed all that 'banter'. It made me really uncomfortable and he didn't care, which is why he became an ex fairly quickly. My DP now couldn't be more different. There are lots of good men out there who can't stand sexism.

Hearhooves makes some good points as well, should all women be blamed for the crimes of a few? Look at the Roxanne Pallett incident last year on Big Brother - do all women deserve to be branded liars just because she made a false allegation?

there are lots of good men out there who can't stand sexism

Mmmm, dh calls it out at work though. He quite often comments on the lack of female representation

“Men are less likely to hit a woman than they are a man

I wish I lived in this idyllic place. Where is it?” Me too!

I think we need to be careful in assuming that the supposed statistics on crime reporting are correct because I know I certainly haven’t officially reported many of the assaults I’ve experienced because I know it’d be bloody pointless! In my experience men are far more likely to report.

But even my brother, ex and other men I consider to be pretty decent men not only don’t challenge certain sexist comments and behaviours they don’t even NOTICE them a lot of the time.

I’m very sceptical based on what I’ve experienced and observed that there are large numbers of good men who never witness sexist speech and behaviour made by those in their circle.

Who are these people you see being violent to men, Pan?

Mostly drunk men, although I have seen quite a few violent women as well. Working in a South Coast bar popular with hen and stag do's opens your eyes a bit.

There was the half a dozen or so arseholes who jumped me when I was walking home from the pub one evening. At first I thought they wanted my kit bag (I had been playing rugby earlier) but they just wanted to beat someone up and I happened to be that person. I like to say I put up a brave fight, after all, back then I was a big fit bloke playing semi pro rugby but the truth is I was assaulted from behind and went down like a sack of spuds. Last thing I remember was some women laughing while a bloke took a run up to kick me in the head, fracturing my eye socket in the process.

Most of my male friends have been 'jumped' at some point, some managed to run away, most like me took a hiding. Quite a few of mates have been assaulted by women as well, but that is usually seen as just being funny.

So yes, the calls to intervene are all very good when you are not being the one being asked to put your body on the line.

I did of course report the guard to the train company

Good, did anything come of it?