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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to suggest that Mumsnet is quite sexist against men?

848 replies

Eckhart · 18/11/2019 16:51

I don't know if it's just the threads I've been on. I don't know how many men use Mumsnet.

Sexism either way makes me equally uncomfortable. How do other Mumsnet users feel about this?

OP posts:
0hforfoxsake · 19/11/2019 13:21

I think it says more about the posters wife than feminists.

My 18 yo son is a feminist. I’m more of a Women’s Libber personally.

Leighhalfpennysthigh · 19/11/2019 13:27

The concept of 'good' and 'bad' men is really puerile. They are people like us, who can be fantastic when all is going well in their lives, and who sadly, just like women, regress when under stress, pressured, tired etc

Exactly.

However toxic masculinity is a problem for both men and women. Both my niece and my partner were raped by men. Both horrendous experiences but my nieces experience is not worse than my partners just because he is male. Her rapist is in prison. His is in a position of power. It could easily be the other way around and both have felt the same shame and pain from their experiences and to this day, few people in their lives know what happened to them - in fact neither of them know of the others experience.

Where we really fall down in society is accepting that some people are different and that being male and being female is more of a spectrum than stereotypes. Maybe if we accepted that there are men out there who aren't ruled by their penis, are "feminine" in their outlook, but aren't gay or trans, then maybe we women who have these men as our partners can stop saying NAMALT. Just as not all women are like that, not all childless people are like that etc etc.

HandsOffMyRights · 19/11/2019 13:30

The skewing of other people's words and the insistence on hearing only what we want to hear is rife on this thread. I've truly never seen anything like it.

Are you sure? You've done a sterling job of sealioning on the two threads I've been on with you.

Graphista · 19/11/2019 13:39

@sorrywhat men may be more likely to complete suicide, the numbers of people who attempt suicide considered roughly the same by some studies, others show that women are more likely to attempt suicide there are issues with how these stats are recorded as unfortunately even mh professionals assess some attempts as “not genuine”.

Not the specific point of the thread but as someone who suffers from severe mental illness the whole narrative around the sex divide in mental illness pisses me off! Yes there are issues with toxic masculinity and men/boys being expected to cope but actually when you look into mental illness diagnosis and treatment women and girls fare worse again.

Everyone who suffers from mental illness should receive appropriate diagnosis, support and treatment of course but the recent push re men’s mental health has caused problems for women’s access to these.

Now there are wider political/economic reasons why this is the case but at the end of the day neither sex should receive more funding, more support.

And I absolutely disagree that men’s mental illness and suicides are women’s fault!

Graphista · 19/11/2019 13:40

SexlessBoulder - I’d rather be single than with someone who expects a bloody medal for doing the dishes! I’m willing to bet that what you described under those name changes more than warranted advice to leave. If you choose not to because you have low standards and are willing to put up with poor treatment then that is your choice, though I’d argue if you were genuinely happy you wouldn’t have posted those threads in the first place.

You certainly don’t have the right to judge other women with higher standards for their decisions.

My ex cheated and I ended the relationship because like fuck would I put up with being treated so disrespectfully. He himself admits he was an idiot to do it and regrets it massively, there was no reason for him to do so other than the ego boost. Other than that he was a relatively good husband and father until then, pulled his weight around the home, and with childcare responsibilities, behaved fairly re finances - until we split, then I saw a whole other side to him! On the topic of ow in my case slightly unusual as she was supposedly a friend of mine too and absolutely knew he was married, that we were very much together, so yes I blame her as much as him.

Having witnessed an abusive marriage in my parents’ I would never tolerate the crap my mother has. I’ve seen various friends & family putting up with differing levels of unfair treatment from their husbands/partners, very few men in my experience are genuinely equal in how they treat their wives/partners.

“I've never read a thread that goes 'my OH never does the DIY, cut the grass, trim the trees, plant flowers, decorates the house, clean the car, takes the rubbish out and I always wonder whether in the list of things these men never do, there is some selective thinking.” I’ve seen at least 3 threads in recent months where exactly that was the case! Where the husband/partner was not only not doing “womens” jobs but they weren’t doing ANYTHING! Myself and certain other posters who’s names escape me right now often challenge the comment on such threads of “is he living in the 1950’s” because the men/couples we know who are/were more traditional in how tasks were divided weren’t plain LAZY! My grandfathers and even my arse of a father, my uncles may have/do their home based tasks along sex based division but they don’t do NOTHING which an increasing amount of younger men seem to claim is “traditional”. No the women may have done the dishes, the laundry and caring for babies and toddlers but the men did the diy, gardening and occupying older children.

“if women focused on how to be more considerate of their partner's feelings so they could do the same” WHY do the women have to “be nice” first?!

Yes for many couples the years immediately after having dc can be the toughest but I do think at this point the onus should be slightly more on men to understand that their wives/partners are recovering from childbirth, coping with the demands on their body of breastfeeding, are emotionally stretched if the primary carers of demanding babies/toddlers (touched out etc). Yet I regularly see threads from men morning about lack of sex when their wives/partners are less than 6 months post partum! And generally these same posters do precious little around the home & with childcare - it’s like “really?! And you’re surprised she doesn’t want sex?! Get a clue!”

I have NEVER seen it suggested that a full time working man ALSO has to be completely taking over household and childcare tasks when they’re at home. I’ve seen many RIGHTLY say that both parties deserve equal down time, that his working “full time” doesn’t mean he gets to do ZERO at home.

“Then look out for it. It's definitely there.” Please do provide examples.

“It is way more nuanced than that!

People keep offering examples that don’t compare with each other as examples of “double standards”.” Totally agree

Graphista · 19/11/2019 13:41

“That's not progress.” You’re right it’s not - progress will be when such measures are no longer necessary!

“Probably not, but not very inclusive.” Neither is the world! Such schemes are as I’m sure you are aware intended to address the existing imbalance against girls.

Graphista · 19/11/2019 13:41

Actually yes I do think in some circumstances “good” men should take some responsibility for the “not good” men. They should pull up their friends & family who discriminate against women, who make “nagging women” or even worse rape “jokes”, they should pull up the lazy ones who do sod all at home, they should make it clear such behaviour is unacceptable - why should that all be on women?

The really decent men I know not just “good” in the intentional quotes DO this, my brother, certain of my uncles and cousins and some friends DO this, even if it draws criticism or worse to themselves.

“How pray tell am I to be responsible for other men? There is no practical way of doing that short of joining the police force, which has quite enough testosterone as it is. As for challenging them and expecting my challenge to carry more weight because I’m also male, as someone else suggested, I’d hope to do what any decent person would if witnessing abuse.” There are many ways and it doesn’t need to be at the level of clear abuse that you call out poor attitudes or comments. Read up on rape culture and address that in your interactions with other men, challenge them when they complain they’re being expected to pull their weight at home, challenge sexist attitudes at work... loads you could do.

Treesthemovie · 19/11/2019 13:48

The only time I have seen sexism against men is when a man is posting on here. When a man posts about being unhappy in a relationship for example, he gets flamed straight away and told he sounds like an abusive manchild arsehole. Especially if it's sex related.

Also, there are a few female posters on here that I think sound really manipulative and strange, they talk about their husbands/ex husband's and I can tell they are full of it but most posters rush to their defence.

Mostly though I don't think men get much in the way of hard times on here. Loads of women post on here about their husbands and boyfriends and they sound absolutely awful and abusive, and thank god we have a space on the internet where women can talk about this stuff and be told that their partner is abusing them, because many women are not being told this is real life. Mumsnet swings toward a certain type of middle class woman with a prescribed attitude to life which can be irritating, but it is absolutely invaluable when it comes to telling women as it is when it comes to their relationships and saying - you deserve better!

Eckhart · 19/11/2019 13:48

@HandsOffMyRights I'd call it debating, but I'm happy to agree to differ.

OP posts:
0hforfoxsake · 19/11/2019 13:53

We have a local refuge, which has been a women’s refuge until recently. Men were actually emailing them accusing them of sexism. Can you believe it???

I suggested those men may like to establish and run their own refuge for men, rather than expecting women to do it for them.

First rule of misogyny: it’s always the woman’s fault.

Leighhalfpennysthigh · 19/11/2019 13:54

Actually yes I do think in some circumstances “good” men should take some responsibility for the “not good” men. They should pull up their friends & family who discriminate against women, who make “nagging women” or even worse rape “jokes”, they should pull up the lazy ones who do sod all at home, they should make it clear such behaviour is unacceptable - why should that all be on women

It is, absolutely, the responsibility of "good" men to be role models for boys - afterall, as women we are always being told that we must be good role models for girls. Why should men get a free pass?

It is also the responsibility for "good" men to call out twattish behaviour, just as women should do the same for our sex.

It's not rocket science.

We should also live in a world where we don't have to categorise men as "good" or "bad". There should be behaviours that are acceptable and behaviours that are nit acceptable. And, really, a man doing the washing up, taking kids to school, putting the hoover around and doing normal adult things is not a good man. These are not, amd should nit be seen as, something other than a person being an adult.

RuffleCrow · 19/11/2019 13:58

Have you come up with an answer to my though experiment yet op? I'm waiting.

0hforfoxsake · 19/11/2019 14:12

That’s key isn’t it? The role modelling. Absolutely spot on there.

Sagradafamiliar · 19/11/2019 14:23

Men were actually emailing them accusing them of sexism, can you believe it???

Yup! Probably the same sad individuals who have a problem with rape crisis centres for women. Necessity called and women answered. Said sad individuals are always too busy mouthing off about discrimination to consider that they could get off their arses and address pressing issues themselves instead of waiting for women to either swoop in and do it for them, or comply with their wants and compromise the services offered.

Eckhart · 19/11/2019 14:26

@RuffleCrow No. Most of the people left on the thread are just rude to me because don't like my opinions. I don't expect everybody to agree with me but I'm not going to keep on saying the same things for the same small group of people to shoot them down, with added insults.

I've had some YABUs, some YANBUs, and some strong opinions. I'm happy that my question has been answered, so I'll retire from the thread now. I'm grateful to everyone who has posted, even those with whom I disagree.

If you're actually interested in my opinion, let me know and I'll pm you.

OP posts:
Sagradafamiliar · 19/11/2019 14:28

Quick update: over half of rape crisis centres, safe spaces for women traumatised by men, in the most vulnerable time of their lives, who require to be around only other women, are now open to men. Well there we are.

Sagradafamiliar · 19/11/2019 14:29

Why on earth are you asking people to PM you? Hmm

LolaSmiles · 19/11/2019 14:34

Sagradafamiliar
Didn't get the resounding pat on the back they were expecting.

Much easier to argue there's a hive mind full of clones who think the same thing (despite the thread showing a range of views, and a range of views between posters who agree on challenging the OP!)

JoObrien7 · 19/11/2019 14:35

@Eckhart I admire you for staying on here and standing up to a load of women. I have just got back from work and cannot believe you are all still here battling it out Smile

Eckhart · 19/11/2019 14:35

Rufflecrow was interested in my opinion and said they were waiting to hear it. I offered it in a way I'm happy to give it, and explained my reasons. They don't have to accept or even respond.

OP posts:
Eckhart · 19/11/2019 14:38

@JoObrien7 Thank you for saying so, I appreciate it.

OP posts:
JoObrien7 · 19/11/2019 14:43

@Eckhart You are very welcome ... I prefer to work with men than women because some can be very catty and vindictive... not that I am referring to anyone on this thread btw Wink

SilverySurfer · 19/11/2019 14:43

I like some men, but I'm happy to be classed as sexist against little boys still attached to their mummies who pretend to be grown up, cocklodgers, professional incompetents, abusers, controllers, lazy arseholes etc.

Pumperthepumper · 19/11/2019 15:27

I think probably most men would say they would step in if someone was say, being physically attacked but that’s not good enough.

Men, all men, every single man, yes all men, need to start calling out the micro-aggressions that women have to deal with. Like stopping your friend in the pub from cat calling, or pulling him up if he calls someone a tart. Fight to close the gender pay gap, leave meetings early and say loudly and clearly ‘it’s for childcare reasons’. There’s a million little tiny things men (all men etc) could be doing but don’t.

Don’t even start me on being a ‘good dad’ - there’s a thread on here just now about an ex who won’t brush his daughters hair when she’s there for the weekend, so it’s all matted by Monday. Posters are genuinely suggesting her mum cuts her hair because men can’t possibly be expected to care for their own children to the extent that they’re able to brush hair.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 19/11/2019 15:31

The patriarchy let’s everyone down. It tells men and boys that we can have low expectations of them ‘boys will be boys’.
It’s feminism that says ‘we know you are better than that’.

Plenty of women hold those views too and raise their sons accordingly. Whose responsibility is it to bring them into line?

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