to suggest that Mumsnet is quite sexist against men?

[Eckhart]

I don't know if it's just the threads I've been on. I don't know how many men use Mumsnet.

Sexism either way makes me equally uncomfortable. How do other Mumsnet users feel about this?

So will I, Hear :) as you were.

I couldn't agree more with cuckoo.

@LolaSmiles I didn't say that you said that. And yes, I know you're thinking I didn't post in good faith.

MorrisZapp.

But on those cheating threads posters fall over themselves to tell the person cheated on that it is only the man to blame, not the ow, that she didn't owe the op anything.

I think that's wrong too. We all owe it to fellow human beings not to cause them pain, not only the people that we've made promises to. So on those threads it often reads as though women are blameless and can do no wrong even when they are shagging their best friend's husband.

@JacquesHammer Well, I do feel it's answered my OP. (this could go on for a while... 'I do', 'Well, I don't', 'Well, I do', 'But, I don't.'... ad nauseaum)

If you think that treating men and women equally is male-centric, then you too are further answering my OP succinctly.

hear
Whereas I think those threads, though sometimes underplaying the role of the OW, do a fairly good job in reminding posters who've been cheated on to centre the blame at the main culprit.
Offline and online I've seen too many women argue that they trust their man, but they don't trust his female friend / female work colleagues / woman from the triathlon club etc. Or they've been cheated on and they make the decision to forgive their man, and then use the OW as some sort of evil temptress figure to displace the anger that should be directed at their cheating partner.

You're totally right, both the man and the OW have a responsibility not to be dickheads, and the OW absolutely has responsibility for her part, but I think it is helpful for posters to remember that it's the partner who has cheated and the partner that has betrayed trust and so the bulk of the blame lies there (otherwise we allow a ridiculous view to go on where men are just fine until they see a pretty face and then they can't help but fall into bed with someone else).

I agree with you OP. Some of the slanted views are bordering on embarrassing.

If you think that treating men and women equally is male-centric, then you too are further answering my OP succinctly

That’s the point. IMO you don’t.

(Could you please remember not to tag me)

I do think SOME people on here will slag off men at any opportunity. I've seen threads advising a woman not to marry a man because she earns more, and he could leave and take half her money - whereas a SAHM in same position would be encouraged to marry so that she'd be entitled to half his money.

I've also had a thread about my husband's abusive ex being turned around saying "I'd love to hear her side of the story", "he probably drove her to it", "are you sure it wasn't actually him who was abusive" - given he was on the brink of suicide after being completely isolated and trapped for 4 years, this was pretty disgusting.

But it's a group of individuals and people will always have their own perspectives based on their past.

I've seen threads advising a woman not to marry a man because she earns more, and he could leave and take half her money - whereas a SAHM in same position would be encouraged to marry so that she'd be entitled to half his money

It is way more nuanced than that!

People keep offering examples that don’t compare with each other as examples of “double standards”.

@JoObrien7
@JacquesHammer

*Also your user name implies you are male.

Aha! I see we are now taking usernames literally. In which case I expect my due respect & deference from all of you.

It’s isnt equality within a patriarchal society though is it?

Smash the patriarchy and liberation for all is what I say.

Some men let all men down, with their entitled, oppressive, rapey ways. Some men get defensive and tell us ‘it’s not all men’. Some men tell us we shouldn’t be angry.

Very very few men recognise that it’s the behaviour of some men that is the problem, not the reaction of women.

The patriarchy let’s everyone down. It tells men and boys that we can have low expectations of them ‘boys will be boys’.
It’s feminism that says ‘we know you are better than that’.

I will continue to be angry until men take responsibility for other men, and not bleat on that women are the bad guys for not liking it.

But why should anyone in a group take responsibility for the rest of their group if they have nothing to do with them and don't even know them? Some people from my country are really corrupt and have stolen money - I'm not fucking apologising on their behalf. Just like a teenager on a council estate shouldn't have to act sorry because some of the teens on their council estate are selling drugs and stabbing people.

@Ohforfoxsake If you are a man, are you personally happy to take responsibility for those men who let the side down? If you are a woman, are you happy to take responsibility for women who emotionally abuse their partners and let the side down?

I fully agree that feminism says 'We know you are better than that' and applaud this. That's a respectful view.

But what I see on MN from some posters is 'Men are shit'. That's a direct quote from this thread, from today. That's the kind of thing I'm questioning. Some seem to think 'Yes, men ARE shit, and I'm proud to stand up and say it!' That's the stuff I feel uncomfortable with.

@Itiswhatitis I agree. And I think it's the crux of the problem. All men being asked to take responsibility for some abusers/sexist tossers/criminals who are also men. It seems grossly unfair to the decent men.

JacquesHammer What have I said that does not treat men and women equally? I need specifics, please, because I genuinely don't know.

But if they went around calling the victims unreasonable for being angry about being stabbed, rather than acknowledging the wrongdoing of the people doing the stabbing?

The patriarchy let’s everyone down. It tells men and boys that we can have low expectations of them ‘boys will be boys’.
It’s feminism that says ‘we know you are better than that’.
Yes!
My DH (and most of his friends) get really pissed off at feckless men who act like man children, who talk about "helping" around the house. There's a property advert on TV at the moment where the reason the family need to move house is so dad can read is car magazine in private whilst family chaos unfolds around him.

And I think it's the crux of the problem. All men being asked to take responsibility for some abusers/sexist tossers/criminals who are also men. It seems grossly unfair to the decent men.

Well I think it's unfair to the decent men too. But I never see the same outrage when women are held collectively responsible for something. A look at newspaper comments sections will show a lot of hatred for women in the workplace because everyone on there always knows someone who started not pulling their weight as soon as they had children. And even though most women are trying their hardest to juggle the competing demands of work and family, the freeloaders are held up as an example of how employment law has gone too far, and men are at a disadvantage etc. And then childless women will come along and agree that yes, mothers are a problem in the workplace. But then, hang on, women who are sahms are not contributing to society, not paying enough tax, expecting too much of their husbands etc, and they're still wrong. So society wants women to be economically independent whilst also staying out of the workplace and leaving the jobs for men. Women just can't do anything right.

Sorry, was just using the workplace as one example of how women are supposed to be responsible for other women. Either because we want to stay at home so we are lazy golddiggers, or because we want to work, so we are greedy emasculators of men.

I don't see any sexism against men here. I do see a lot of women speaking plainly about adverse experiences with men in possibly the only relatively safe space they have to do that.

Some of the worst sexism I've ever seen against men has come from other men calling them 'sissy, faggot, poof, fudge packer' any homophobic insult they can think of when a man dares to step outside of masculine norms, even briefly. Toxic masculinity is for toxic men to end.

@isabellerossignol I agree. I think some people are assuming that I don't think society is sexist against women, because I asked a question about whether they think society is sexist against men.

In my opinion the two can, and do, exist side by side.

Not blaming victims and condemning bad behaviour is obviously right - but my husband "taking responsibility" for people like Jimmy Savile because they have a penis in common, is not.

I think the ‘men are shit’ comes from personal experience.

Your lack of empathy for women OP is staggering.

You know what, every single one of my female friends has been harassed or abused by men in some way. From being leered at at age 11 to bring raped.

The reason we can’t go out alone at night isn’t because of what a woman might do.

The reason girls can’t wear short skirts or get drunk is because of what a man might choose to do.

This forum is for parents and the vast majority are women. Women who understand what it is to be a woman. Whether that’s the fear of being hurt by a man or the terrifying prospect of that first shit after a vaginal birth.

So OP, fuck off making us justify our lived experience.

Do something to make the society we live in a better place rather than telling us we should like it.

so Itiswhat, you’re happy with the NAMALT approach?

'Men are shit' coming from personal experience should then be phrased as 'the men I've met are shit'.

Women can and do do all the things you've listed under 'Women can't do'.

I regularly challenge people on sexism, both ways, so I already am doing something towards making society a better place.

You are very rude.

Women speak out against abuse and aren’t listened to.

Toxic men don’t listen to women.

Which is why men need to speak up.

Men’s behaviour isn’t the responsibility of women.

It appears to some of you that it isn’t the responsibility of men either.

Personally I want our society to be a better place, so will continue to speak out. If that means people like the OP accuse me of misandry, so be it.