To ask about Jeremy Corbyn and anti semitism

[TheoriginalLEM]

So having decided to vote labour I had a conversation with a Jewish work colleague who said she couldn't vote for him, hated him even. It took me a few seconds and then i realised why. I said that I had stuck my fingers in my ears and my head in the sand somewhat about this, hoping it was just the media etc.

We didn't get into it as I could see she was uncomfortable.

So can someone tell me if and why he is an anti-semite? It doesn't sit well with me to vote for someone like that but I desperately want the Tories gone and my politics is definitely to the left.

I'm honestly not being goady and I know I could google but i wouldn't know where to start to get an unbiased view

@CendrillonSings

*Corbyn was just interviewed by the Evening Standard, and the level of absolute denialism is shocking even by his standards:

www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/esmagazine/jeremy-corbyn-labour-interview-election-antisemitism-brexit-a4290601.html

Right. So what about the question of anti-Semitism? He suddenly turns from Mr Affable to Mr Angry, as if someone has pressed a switch. ‘There is NO anti-Semitism in the Labour Party,’ he bellows. Huh? How can he believe that when The Jewish Chronicle recently published a poll saying that half the British Jewish community would consider emigrating if Corbyn came to power?*

OH WAIT A MINUTE.........

An earlier version of this article erroneously stated that Mr Corbyn said there is no anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. The article has been corrected.

The evening standard, edited by Osbourne...., put something in the article that Corbyn simply did not say. At best it's abysmally poor journalism. I guess Osbourne is hoping that's what we'll put it down to, not yet another attempt to smear Jeremy Corbyn, knowing that many people will read the first version but not the retraction and then repeat the fake version until it becomes 'true'.

The levels of depravity the right wing will go to to smear JC is
shocking not even a little bit surprising, sadly.

"Apparently any criticism of Israel is anti semetic."
How many times do we need to explain this on this thread: Turns out: all the time
Sigh.

"to see the Holocaust there"
I can only assume English is not your first language. It's not a bloody sight seeing spot.

"Who shall I blame the fairies at bottom of my garden. Many on the right blame all Muslims for 9/11."
Wtf?

I thought it stemmed from criticism of the Israeli government who treated Palestinians awfully

There are a number of examples of Corbyn's behaviour on this thread that have nothing to do with Israel. What do you think of him praising Raed Salah and inviting him to the House of Commons? What do you think of the video footage up thread of him embracing a speaker who has just called Jews 'immoral'? Or his writing a foreward for an anti-Semitic book? Etc etc

I would really love just one single poster who has come on this thread to say 'Israel', or it's all smears or what about xyz, to actually address the specific examples given about Corbyn and why this isn't anti-Semitism. I've only been asking for 3 days!

I'm not Jewish, but have been quietly following this unfolding horror in the LO for years.

I genuinely think that most people genuinely don't think they're being Anti Semitic let alone Corbyn. They don't recognise it. When people point it out, they just say.....but Israel.

The same Twitter tropes get rolled out again and again. Just because you called someone a 'dirty Zionist' instead of a 'dirty Jew' isn't fooling anyone. I see Zionist used as a slur daily on Twitter.

LO = Labour Party 🤦🏻‍♀️

@Milicentbystander72 , ask yourself what "antizionist" actually means. It means not wanting the state of Israel to exist. It doesn't mean "criticising Likud". Just reflect on what "getting rid of the state of Israel " means.

Just reflect on what "getting rid of the state of Israel " means

Of course I know what anti Zionist means. I think you've misinterpreted what I meant. I was saying that I see very regularly people (especially on Twitter) saying 'Zionist' when they really want to say Jew. They view both as awful but think that by saying Zionist they're somehow not being Anti Semitic.

One of the Labour whitstleblowers on the Panorama program says they were often called a 'dirty Zionist' as a regular slur.

The complaints about UN resolutions against Israel are interesting. It's true it is more scrutinised than anywhere else: but apparently there has been a growth in recent years of scrutiny elsewhere as the authority of the UN grows, and so the focus on Israel in terms of percent is slowly reducing. www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/UNHRC_Country_Specific_v1.pdf

Look, you have to admit that Israel is a very special case. It is the only country that was created out of nothing inside a territory that was already occupied by its native people - and after 1500 years occupancy, they are its native people whether Jews like it or not. The creation of Israel in the Near East, bluntly, was bloody stupid and the last act of colonialism. The unilateral creation of any state like that anywhere is a virtual guarantee of a permanent state of war: in the Near East we are damned lucky things aren't worse already. Israel should have been created in the US.

Unfortunately we're stuck with it and the consequences now. It is surely better to try and seek strategies for peace and negotiation than not.

I would really love just one single poster who has come on this thread to say 'Israel', or it's all smears or what about xyz, to actually address the specific examples given about Corbyn and why this isn't anti-Semitism. I've only been asking for 3 days!

I've answered that with my reasons. You don't agree and therefore don't accept that anyone's tried. The place is in a state of war. Things are complicated there. Corbyn has been trying to find strategies towards peace. That requires communications with people who some will not like. Look at Northern Ireland as a comparison.

@ImGoingToBangYourHeadsTogether ... where to start?

Israel has had a continuous Jewish population since ancient times. For a long time they have not been the majority, but they have been there. So they are also indigenous.

Secondly, how is Israel the only state to be created where other people are living? Have you heard of a little place called America? Canada? Australia? The whole of Latin America? And none of those countries had had an indigenous European presence since ancient times, but we rolled on in anyway.

And why on earth should a Jewish homeland have been created in America? Wtf? There are no ancestral ties to America, but there are Indigenous Americans still living in the US and they may be a wee bit tired of people carving up their land (the few bits that remain empty - I say few as compared to Canada, where I live, the empty spaces in America are relatively small).

The creation of Israel in the Near East, bluntly, was bloody stupid and the last act of colonialism

No, it was an act of anti-colonialism. The Jewish people were expelled from Judea by colonising Romans and scattered around the world. The land was then colonised by Arab populations - that is why they built their mosque on top of the ruins of our temple.

For thousands of years, the Jewish people prayed to return to Zion.

There's a reason we say 'Next year in Jerusalem' at the end of our Seder, during Pesach.

There's a reason why Jewish Holocaust survivors, upon their liberation, sang:
Kol od ba’le’vav p’nima,
As long as, in the heart within

Nefesh yehudi ho’miyah.
The Jewish soul still yearns

U’lefa-atei mizrach kadimah,
And the eye, looking onwards

Ayin le’Tziyyon tzofiyah.
Gazes towards Zion

Od lo avda tikva-teinu,
Our hope is not yet lost

Ha’tikvah bat sh’not al-payim
Our hope of 2000 years

Lih-yot am chofshi b’ar-tzeinu
To be a free people in our land

Eretz Tziyyon v’Yerushalayim.
The land of Zion and Jerusalem

Audio taken by the BBC as Jews liberated from Bergen-Belsen sang HaTikvah.

I've answered that with my reasons. You don't agree and therefore don't accept that anyone's tried.

Have you? All I recall seeing you post on this thread is that using Shylock as an insult isn't anti-Semitic and that wasn't Corbyn anyway. Having read your most recent posts I do however remain surprised at your continued arguing on a subject you are so clearly ignorant about.

Media are lying - he’s not anti-Jew

Media are lying - he’s not anti-Jew

Not a great argument for those of us who have judged him for his own words and actions, and not relied on the media at all. Plenty of examples on this thread if you had bothered to read it instead of just plopping on 850 posts in to say something that has already been posted and discussed numerous times.

As I said above the solution for those on the thread worried about this is vote Conservative. It will also mean the economy is better run and you keep more of your own earned money to decide how it will be spent yourself and you probably have a better idea how to handle it than any state whether left or right ever does.

Conservative policies are about freedom. Labour policies are about state control and dictat.

As ever @Xenia is showing the opposite of empathy. Conservative policies suit her.
If you use state schools, the NHS, if your dcs pay student fees, if you might need to claim housing benefit or pip or UC, or find care home fees that are currently tied up in bricks and morter, if you want to remain in the EU or want another Referendum, if you’re worried about MH provision,don’t vote Conservative.

I know there are different views on MN coming from Tory and Labour supporters and people will just have to make up their own minds.

Often one issue is crucial to particular people. For some it will be climate change alone in this election. Others it may be anti semitism or even gender legislation - Tories have not thankfully gone ahead with the earlier proposals to change our existing rules on that. Some it will always be abortion and no other issue. others it is trident or wanting more spent on the army.

The bottom line for many is the pound in their pocket and which party they trust most with the economy.

Let us see who wins next month. May the best man win (as sadly it is just men in terms of Labour and Tories anyway - pity they both didn't pick a female leader. I wonder when Labour will ever manage to have a female leader - something the Tories have managed since 1979).

Ritascornershop

I agree with your post- it's very wrong and dangerous for people to still be arguing whether Israel should even exist where it does (or at all fgs)

The issue is equality between Israel and Palestine, that is the key to the peace that both countries need.

As far as Israel is concerned, it also requires a shift in the thinking in Gaza and the West Bank and among the religious right in Israel.

As far as Corbyn is concerned (& the way the party has handled this) they need to stop whatabout-ering about a country thousands of kilometres away that Jews in the UK do not live in.

As far as the whatabout the Tories and racism, I for one do not expect a ton better from the Tories. The self-proclaimed anti-racism campaigner, however, can do better than to infect the Labour Party with the age-old prejudice. I expect better from Labour.

I don't agree with those arguments. The issue of Israel/Palestine affects all Jews and is frequently cited as one of the underlying reasons for the radicalisation of Islamic terrorists.

It will not help anyone to keep dismissing debate and explanations as 'whataboutery', it is just another way of shutting people down.
Attempts to shut down debate only lead to greater anger which endangers all Jews.

This issue is key one for the left particularly as the USA has been so heavily involved in backing Israel, and even more so with Trump's deliberately provoking interventions.

Corbyn is not a 'self-proclaimed' campaigner - evidence of his years of anti-racism campaigning is there for anyone to find.

It's also no help to anyone to say you expect more from Labour than the Tories - what sense in there in that?

Similarly, I don’t expect Labour to score highly on representing the best interests of the wealthy. I’m just not terribly surprised f the Tories as a whole had some unpleasant opinions about minorities. Whereas Labour, well, it’s kind of one of their main things, no? So seems reasonable to hold them to account on it.

Whataboutery is not, in my case at least, a way of shutting people down, it’s a way of reminding people that the issue is not whether or not you agree with, or are oddly obsessed with, the policies of a foreign government. The issue is about anti-semitism towards British citizens & British members of Parliament. Many Jews are secular, some are not emotionally attached to Israel, and even the ones who are are not accountable for any policies people may not like, just as a Labour voter in the UK is not responsible for the policies of a Conservative government and a British person of Jamaican descent is not responsible for the policies of a Jamaican government. Its a distraction from the issue at hand.

To me Corbyn is a self-proclaimed anti-racism campaigner as he would not be in this mess if he was including Jews in his anti-racism campaigning. It would be like me saying I’m an protect the trees campaigner, except apple trees, apple trees aren’t really one of us, and I do enjoy the company of people who spend their time shouting at apple trees and chopping them down.