To want Primark to provide a women only changing room?

[Amelia1985x]

I’m a regular Primark customer and was surprised to go the store yesterday and find all the changing rooms had been redesignated as mixed sex. The shop assistant told me not to worry, because most customers on the ladies’ floor were women, and anyway, she could see down the line of curtained cubicles and would challenge a “dodgy man”. When I questioned her about how she would spot one, she called the Manager as he could explain the policy better.

He told me the world was changing. I asked him why Primark had had sex segregated changing rooms in the first place. No answer. I asked him what specific legislative change or scientific discovery had occurred that made the world different to this time last year. No answer. He said that this arrangement was more inclusive for nonbinary people.

I explained that I didn’t feel that comfortable stripping to my knickers in a mixed area, and he told me I could always use the one disabled cubicle which has a lockable door. Clearly this has been designed for mixed sex use and did have a lock, but obviously I would then be blocking its use for a disabled person. He suggested there was no reason to be concerned. Yet when I think about me and my women friends, all our me-too moments, - of being flashed at, or masturbated at, sexual assaults and rapes – all have been my men.

The manager was unabashed. He said Primark had done research – even though he couldn’t produce it, and there were no leaflets or posters to explain this HUGE policy change to customers. He told me I was the only person who had ever complained.

So I guess this is what I want to know. Am I a dinosaur? Am I being unreasonable to want a women only changing room?

Here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3744943-make-fetishists-reviewing-m-s-knickers-hits-the-sun

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3731834-Its-official-Marks-and-Spencer-have-fallen

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3733860-It-s-official-Marks-and-Spencer-have-fallen-the-sequel

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3733860-It-s-official-Marks-and-Spencer-have-fallen-the-sequel

Acknowledging that men as a class are a threat to women as a class is not sexism. It’s reality. It’s why single sex spaces exist in the first place, and nothing has changed to make that need disappear.

When speaking the sentence “I am a woman”, at which point does the statistical threat of male violence disappear?

I cannot believe anyone thinks that abusive men will not exploit this change to abuse women. Men have gone to far greater lengths to access and abuse women than strolling into a changing room.

I would like anyone to explain how I can tell the difference between your lovely DH, FIL or whomever, and men who are a threat to me. Could we give them badges?

I’ve been sexually assaulted / raped by several men. I know that some of these men are now married, and I’m sure their wives would say that their husbands aren’t a threat to women either.

A friend of mine recently got divorced when her seemingly lovely DH was discovered to have a computer full of hidden camera footage of their bathroom and bedroom where he was filming her without her knowledge.

We need to stop talking about men as either good men or sexual predators when the reality is far more nuanced than that (and for the record, my DH would agree).

I’m more keen that the provide changing rooms with actual doors that lock. Then I couldn’t care less who is using the others. Flimsy curtains are awful

Another poster upthread got criticised for a 'Not my Nigel' post. I don't see why 'Not my Nancy' is any more acceptable.

We believe Nancy's safety is more important than Nigel's feelings.

@winegummybear Nancy's safety will be even more protected than it is now, won't it, in a lockable cubicle with adequate security? And Nigel's.

Why would Nancy care who's in the lockable secure cubicle next door? She can't see them, and they can't see her.

That’s not the situation though is it? You’d have to turn cubicles into full secure rooms that run floor to ceiling with lockable doors. That still wouldn’t prevent cameras from being installed by a man previously using the cubicle would it? Actually it would be easier since they could do so without the risk of anyone seeing it.

Do you know how many videos there are on porn sites of hidden changing room cameras?

Where changing rooms are single sex, a man wanting to go in and install a camera would be stopped and asked to leave. Here they’d be welcomed in. Can you really not see how this is a problem?

@Eckhart Campaign for stores to refurbish their changing rooms to full enclosed individual lockable cubicles. With security and regular checks for hidden cameras. That isn't happening and I'm not convinced it will because I just can't see these businesses spending money on that. They're more likely to go back to single sex spaces.
It's all very well saying 'well this would make it better, why would any mind then...' but that isn't the reality.

So what do you do if you have a kid who is squirming like mad as you try to wrestle them into a dress in the changing room? Cubicles are generally a bit right and you can’t use the disabled unless you need to.

@MamaToTheBabyBears I totally agree. Adequate security is an absolute must for everybody in changing rooms. We haven't ever had than, even with single sex changing rooms, because the curtains are bloody hopeless. I haven't been arguing for what I think they'll do, I'm arguing for what I think would be right ideally. I don't think they'll ever get it right for everybody, though, because not everybody wants the same thing.

@LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD The cubicles should be big enough for everyone and accessible. Otherwise it turns into a bunch of other arguments with other groups too, like wheelchair users and people with buggies.

Lockable cubicles are the way forward. Having had experience of predatory female sexual behaviour towards other women it is the safest way. There are "dodgy" people of all genders and sexualities, luckily in a small minority in all cases, but sadly they exist. Everyone should be in a lockable cubicle and safe from intrusion or exposure to any random stranger.

Having had experience of predatory female sexual behaviour towards other women it is the safest way. There are "dodgy" people of all genders and sexualities

And yet the cold hard facts tell us, time and time and time again, that of a theoretical 100 sexual predators, between 95-99 of those will be male sexed people predating on female sexed people.

(However, now predatory males are identifying as women, those stats are being corrupted, because the crimes they commit are increasingly recorded as female. Talk about lose:lose)

@Eckhart Now men/males are allowed into women's changing rooms and toilets assault and changing room porn is on the rise. To minimise the risk, we need to revert back to single sex spaces or refurbish changing rooms, hire security and extra staff to check for cameras which I'm skeptical will ever happen.

Is it always the same poster who pops into threads talking about having been a victim of predatory female sexual behaviour?

I think it's safe (ironically...) to say that every female on earth has been the victim of predatory male sexual behaviour to some degree (from leering and unwelcome comments to rape and of course various behaviours in between) by the time she turns 25 - most women so often they long since stopped counting before they even reach adulthood.

Yet I think it's also safe to say most women never ever experience predatory female sexual behaviour. Not once.

Is that controversial?

Female or woman? The devil is in the detail these days.

As matter of interest, how do people feel about their young/teenage sons using all male changing rooms with nothing but a curtain between them and potential abusers? Does anybody have any stats on this angle of things? I don't. I am genuinely curious. I do know that male predators don't just target females, and that boys are very popular. Ugh.

how do people feel about their young/teenage sons using all male changing rooms with nothing but a curtain between them and potential abusers?

I feel like male violence is an epidemic problem that women alone cannot solve, and are not responsible for (the act or the resolution).

Men also need to step up and acknowledge the issue, and then fix it. Just as women stepped up and set up places of safety, behaviours and systems for their sex.

We're not the world's mummy.

Posters on the M&S threads have reported that the locks were broken on cubicles.

I have been in mixed sex loos where the man couldn't be bothered to shut the cubicle door while he got his cock out.

I had a double buggy for my twins that wouldn't fit in a standard cubicle so I had to leave the door open, feeling safe as the other patrons were women.

My friend worked at a school where a co-worker had hidden a spy camera inside to film women on the toilet.

NSPCC worker (Rubberman) was found to be filming himself wanking in a toilet cubicle at work.

I'm tired of adjusting my surroundings and devaluing my safety, privacy and dignity because some men seek to harm and rape women or get sexual arousal from several aspects of being around women/wearing their clothes or seeing women in a vulnerable position.

You only need to look at the many recorded incidents on the Mumsnet 'it never happens' resource thread or simply Google the likes of 'Target' to see how much danger violent and sexually deviant men place women and children in.

I'm sick of defending my right to safety, so why doesn't the poster who seems hellbent on wanting penises in women's spaces tell us what the benefit is to women and children of giving men access to our changing rooms and toilets?

Well said Buzz
Derail handled well.

I suppose most mothers just worry and hope, like they have been doing ever since they sent them off to the gents loos on their own.

Fortunately my older ds (12yo) hates shopping and just picks out his clothes online. Helpfully, it is only a matter of finding the skinniest waist in the length that fits.

@BuzzShitbagBobbly congratulations for one of the most stupid and insensitive posts I have ever read on Mumsnet. I hope you are proud. I am acutely aware that was unlucky and the vast majority of people committing this crimes are male. This makes it easier for the minority of female monsters to get away with it, especially when idiots like you are so dismissive.

I don't deny that the majority of incidents are male on female-this is obvious and proven. My point is that this isnt the ONLY pattern and that it is better to have a system which keeps everyone safe. Or do you not care about people in an unlucky minority? If that is the case then maybe don't bother pretending to take bait rights and justice.

All clothing shops should have separate changing areas for women (and indeed for men). Even though I wish the OP and everyone else never shopped at Primark.

Well my teen son has never tried on anything in a shop in his life. He would just try it on at home. He doesn't go clothes shopping with his mates either like I did as a teen. Young teen boys just tend not to. When he was younger he tried stuff on at home and if it wasn't itchy he would wear it. I always preferred swimming pool changing villages when he was younger because I felt he was safer there but clothes shops have never been an issue.
And yes if course men are more of a threat to women than women are to men! If I'm walking accross a dark lonely car park and hear footsteps behind me am I hoping it's a man or a woman? Because those of you saying it's sexist to say men commit the violent crime would surely not have a preference whether the person coming up behind you in the dark was male or female, yes?
Anyway, like a pp I don't think it needs justifying that women want their own changing spaces. We have always had privacy from men in those situations and we deserve to have it.

Why do we have to justify what we would prefer with crime and risk statistics, and argue whether men are or are not a risk. Why can’t we just say ‘We like having our own space to change’ and that is enough of a reason?

Elisheva....exactly.

This is like watching an abuser behind the scenes.

All kinds of complex arguments are wheeled out to justify a completely unreasonable situation. And because we want to appear reasonable we run off and argue every little point made.

But some of the ‘points’ are quite spurious and are being made to distract and engage your attention.

We have to remember the situation we are trying to preserve was recently considered uncontroversial, and there was no evidence, concern or protest about any harm being done.

Why would Nancy care who's in the lockable secure cubicle next door? She can't see them, and they can't see her

Nancy will care when she finds herself on a porn site filmed from a camera hidden in the cubicle or held underneath the divider by the male pervert next door.