I honestly don't understand why anyone who cares about anyone other than themselves would vote Tory.

[ilovetofu]

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/27/doctor-nhs-vote-labour-austerity-conservatives?CMP=sharebtntw&twitterimpression=true&fbclid=IwAR2JhAMh9bEiRfeALJeTzeP8ogAByuwaitNpshoQ8oEQfYLvlTc7tvJ50

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This whole 'oh I vote for the good of the people' thing doesn't work
If everyone who was eligible to vote 1) actually voted, and then 2) voted for the party who most benefitted them individually then we'd end up with whichever government best suited the majority of people

You're bringing common sense into it again , slippyfeet

And maybe forgetting that all too often, when some prate about "the good of the people", what they actually mean is what would be good for them

Haven't read the thread but the NHS doctor in the opening links (Yannis Gourtsoyannis) is a Labour Party/Momentum activist - elected to Momentum's highest body, the NCG;

peoplesmomentum.com/ncg/

He's not some random, public spirited doctor.

Here you go, figures on immigrants’ net contribution. It was the work of seconds to find them.

www.oxfordeconomics.com/recent-releases/8747673d-3b26-439b-9693-0e250df6dbba

Yes they do - and a sizeable net contribution at that. In fact immigrants from the EU have a higher net contribution than U.K. nationals.

www.oxfordeconomics.com/recent-releases/8747673d-3b26-439b-9693-0e250df6dbba

Yes of course immigrants age. They may stay or they may not. They’ll have children too.

It’s not surprising that Brits are reluctant to have more children given the costs of raising children, childcare, housing instability, impact of career or ability to work etc.

Frankly I couldn’t care less if the children born in this country are born to U.K. national or immigrant parents. Why does it matter?

The government and it sounds a lot of people don't see the ramifications. They only look short term.

Oh you want longterm? Immigrants who came to the U.K. in 2016 will make a net contribution of £26.9bn to the U.K. economy over the course of rheir stay.

I post this because I doubt you’ll read the report linked to above.

Snap @Deathgrip.

Probably completely the wrong thread to plonk this on but I have to vent.

The doorbell rang not long ago and on my doorstep I found 3 Labour canvassers. They started their spiel and I explained to them that, as a foreign national, I can’t vote in the national election.

They virtually jumped on me stating that thát would all change once Corbyn is in power. I politely told them that even if I could vote, a Marxist anti-Semite would never ever get my vote.

The male of the trio then very angrily spouted that Corbyn won the 2013 Gandhi peace prize and that the state of India would NEVER give it to a racist or anti-Semite. I happened to have my phone in my hand and was able to rebuke his claim almost instantly; the Gandhi Peace Prize has been awarded to the likes of Coretta King, Vaclav Havel and Nelson Mandela. By the Indian government.

Corbyn was awarded the Gandhi Foundation International Peace Award. Also awarded to, amongst others, Peter Tatchell. By said foundation, based in Bromley.

They then walked off whilst telling me that I “just don’t understand the political situation in Israel”.

I’m still equally baffled and fuming. Fucking douche bags.

Economic reasons, because they really hate Corbyn, because they're pro-Brexit, etc. And I'm Labour myself. I vote Labour in my own interests.

Gandhi was an anti-Semite too.

I have to say though, it bothers me a lot how Tories are ever so concerned about anti-Semitism in the Labour party but aren't remotely arsed about their own. JRM spouts off about Soros, which is proper conspiracy bullshit, Priti Patel dogwhistles about the metropolitan elite or whatever and Johnson's mate Nigel Farage is a raging anti-Semite himself, but none of you care about that. Anti-Semitism isn't OK when it's someone on your side. I'm all for people calling out Labour anti-Semitism, but the Tories don't get off either, neither do the Lib Dems.

the NHS doctor ... (Yannis Gourtsoyannis) is a Labour Party/Momentum activist - elected to Momentum's highest body, the NCG
He's not some random, public spirited doctor

Thank you, Clavinova, I hadn't yet found that link

As always with spokesmen/reports/whatever, it's worth knowing who's behind and/or paying for their activities

Always voted Labour but absolutely no way could I vote for the anti Semitic Corbyn. Better the devil you know. Also our current Tory MP is actually quite good.

Phil I worry about ALL anti-semitism, regardless of who spouts it.

What bothered me in this case (which would bother me about any and every canvasser) was the bending of the truth. Politics, eh.

There is no such thing as race. It's utterly meaningless, as is your party.

better the devil you know

I’m guessing that will be the devil that openly mocked Muslim women then....

Free kittens for all

@whatsapp10

Got a link to any scientific proof of the basis of 'race'?

By your logic I could change 'race' by putting a bit of bronzer on.

For example, the NHS are able to get immigrants at a low cost rather than training brits so of course they would be better value.

All NHS employees are subject to minimum wage, including immigrants. Pay bands apply to all staff, regardless of where they were born. Immigrants aren’t cheaper to employ. It’s cheaper to hire qualified nurses and doctors from abroad rather than fund their training and a decent government would do that, so that everyone who wants it has the opportunity to train. Beyond that, it matters not one bit where they are from. We had shortages of nurses even before grants were scrapped - the NHS wouldn’t function without immigrants.

It matters because England is a certain race, a culture. Different to Italian, different to Japan different to Indian.
I don’t even know where to start with this. English is not a race (plus you do remember that there’s more to the U.K. than England?). We are a nation of immigrants, it’s just a matter of how far back our ancestors immigrated.

My daughter is in a class of 13 brown girls and 2 white girls. If the whole country was like that then we are not England. We are Indian or Pakistan or just multi cultural minus the white english ethnicity.

Of course we are still England. England is a country, not a skin colour. What an absolutely bizarre and thoroughly racist way of looking at things. And it’s not minus white ethnicity is it, because white people are still present (and actually a significant majority of the population overall).

I'm part of a race that wants it's race to live on. I'm patriotic. Perhaps you don't have the same feeling about your race.

Patriotic? This isn’t patriotism, it’s racism. I’ve worked with lots of non-white Brits, born in England. I am no more British than them. And neither are you.

My great grandmother was Polynesian. Her children, grandchildren and great grandchildren were all born in England. Are we English enough for you? Where’s the cut off with this bizarre way of thinking?

I couldn’t care less about the race of children in my kids classes - I’m too busy trying to get the support my disabled kids need. I couldn’t care less about the ethnicity of colleagues, neighbours, babies being born in the U.K - it’s absolutely irrelevant. .

Ethnicity is not race though, is it?

An example of race is brown, white, or black skin (all from various parts of the world), while an example of ethnicity is German or Spanish ancestry (regardless of race) or Han Chinese. Your race is determined by how you look while your ethnicity is determined based on the social and cultural groups you belong to. You can have more than one ethnicities but you are said to have one race, even if it's "mixed race".

I usually try to engage in reasoned discussion with people but this is just so far beyond being reasonable.

Not read the full thread, but anyone listening to Diane Abbott on Any Questions this weekend has got to have some doubt about voting labour.

• “I always agree with Jeremy - Jeremy’s always right” - just after she’d said something different to Corbyn.
• when asked how they’d get Amazon and Google to pay tax in the Uk - “ we’d work out their profits and they would pay a percentage of that in tax” - yes, that’s how tax normally works, but not quite what she was being asked.

@Deathgrip

It's like a misguided teenager, isn't it? Not sure why I'm bothering