Women shouldn’t have careers...

[Jadefeather7]

Controversial title but hear me out.

Since I was a child I was always pushed to do well academically. My parents invested a lot in my education (financially and time wise) in the hope that I could have a good career & standard of living. My mother told me that she always resented being a SAHM and wanted her daughters to be working and independent. She told me how her mother refused to take on paid childcare when she asked her to retire early but she said she would help her daughters so that their lives would be different, especially as unlike her, her daughters had gone into higher education.

I’m now in a position where I have a great career but it involves working long hours. I’m on maternity leave and find myself pregnant again. I plan to go back for a few months before my next mat leave in order to stay on top of things. As I think about how I will manage I do feel quite stressed.

I have an hour long commute (there are no local jobs in my area) and I work with young, (mostly) single, childless people who have no lives outside of work. The expectation is that everyone puts in long hours. I don’t really want further profession and responsibility at this stage but I don’t want to be taking the piss either (which is what they would see doing 9-5 as)

I’m trying to figure out childcare. I think a nanny would be best although finding someone who will do a fixed term contract is tricky. My husband is against the idea because he thinks it’s throwing money down the drain. It’s a lot of money but I feel like it’s worth it to maintain my career in the long run. His job is very pressurised as well. He wants us to use a childminder. I know that would mean extra stress for me as I would have to try to rush back to do pick ups, laundry, meals etc.

I was talking to my mum about going back to work and she started trying to put me off and told me that I should become a SAHM or take an extended career break (which she knows is career suicide).I felt really upset that after everything she had dreamed off for me, that she would say that.

Most of the women I know who have demanding careers have had a lot of support from their families. I know however that there are so many of you on here who manage with paid childcare, but my mum keeps making me doubt that it’s possible. If you are one those, please tell me it’s possible?

I really love my job. It was a huge part of my life for 10 years and I feel like my family don’t value it.

I’m starting to feel like women can’t have ‘careers’ and only suit having ‘jobs’. Plenty of people seem to manage somehow doing part time 9-5 jobs.

Was it a silly idea to put so much into my education and end up in this sort of career? I feel like all my hard work will end up just being a waste of time.

I don't have a champion - I just have a ridiculous amount of stubbornness, and an awareness that my mum gave up Uni and became a stay at home mum in the back end of beyond, so whilst she was home for us, and we were happy, looking back we were also very poor because there just wasn't any work she could get even if she wanted to, and I want to be able to go into a supermarket and not worry about what I can afford to buy. I want to be able to take the kids out for lunch, without carefully choosing, and relying on 2 for 1 little chef vouchers, and I want to be able to afford for them to have music lessons and go to clubs - because I couldn't do any of that, and I want to be able to do that no matter what, even if something (god forbid) happens to DP.

Oh, and this idea that people have 'family help' is a dying breed. People are having to work longer and harder and move for work these days and having children later in life, and also caring for elderly parents so plenty of us don't have free childcare provided by relatives.

Of course you need a nanny

When we employed a nanny, dh and I split the cost, she is caring for a child that belongs to BOTH of you and enabling BOTH of you to work. Doesn't matter who is earning more, has better prospects etc.

The closest thing I have to a champion is my sister. But I seem to be a champion for lots of other women! .

Have you looked around and seen who is actually there? Other friends, NCT friends etc? You might be surprised. And actually, to go back on my statement re just my sister, I discussed lots of these issues with friends who had similar issues. Solutions weren't always the same, but it didn't mean they weren't 100% supportive of mine. One friend is now in year 3 of a very long sabbatical from the civil service. But I still have these conversations with her. She's supportive of my decision not to do such things.

Totally agree! I've done it for 25 years with absolutely no family help, 10 of which I did as a single parent. Your question really should be 'Should I personally have a career?' rather than the generic one you've posted. Do what's right for you, every option is perfectly fine and you don't need permission from us or anyone if you decide it's not for you.

I'm a Senior Recruiter and recruit at Director level. Many many of my Clients are working Mothers. You make it work and yes it's a juggle and no it isn't easy and does involve strict time management. But there are 2 of you in this and your partner needs to pick up some of the juggling - I'm sure most of us on this thread have supportive arrangements in which both partners play a part. MY DH is a Director, works from home on Fridays or flex's this if we need cover on another day - that's what you do. We jointly paid childcare (and we've had au pairs. childminders and nurseries) percentage wise according to our salaries.

No one really has a champion, the reality is most people are quite self absorbed. Some posters are being quite blaming of you, but this stuff is what older women often know and younger women don't - that inequality really kicks in after you have children, start doing more cooking, always the default parent, the one who goes part time. Often then the one expected to support your own or his parents in the long run. It's not fair and it's not inevitable but boy is fighting it exhausting. I would start by saying which three childminder drop offs and which three pickups will he do? Pin him down. If he won't, then he has to pay for nanny. (And your finances should be pooled btw). You could work compressed hours. But start off on a 50:50 footing or you will be forever disadvantaged. You don't have to have huge career goals - that doesn't mean you have to be his lackey.

I think it's more of an Important Truth is that women shouldn't live with or have kids with inadequate, selfish, sexist men. If a man isn't going to pull his weight and do his share, dump him and move on. There are plenty more out there.

Ever heard the phrase "You can do anything but you can't do everything?"

Is it really worth going back for a few months between babies?

He will probably say he can do various drop offs and pick ups and then when the time comes offer his excuses.

@AJPTaylor it’s something I’ve thought a lot about. I’m finding going back after 6 months daunting, 2 years will be too much

I'm a single mum (lone parent) with no family support and I have a career in a relatively demanding job.

Its not easy. Childcare is expensive but I make it work. I think I've spent nearly £65K on childcare so far and still many more years to go!

Admittedly I would probably be further on in my career if I didn't have my DS. But I'm certainly not complaining.

The reason is because his career is more important because he wants to progress, whereas I am happy to continue in my mid management role.

And we wonder why there's a pay / equity gap. It's because (some) men just throw (even their 'own') women under the bus.

You don't have a career problem. You have a DH problem.

Tell him to sort himself out. You're a team, surely. Your children and both of yours. Your household is both your responsibilities.

Make this half his problem. Instead of taking it all on yourself. Because it is half his problem.

Ditto22

"Is it really worth seeing your kids so little to progress in a career? 8am-6pm in a nursery is a long day, especially for a little child with no concept of time. Many people want the money, the big house, fancy cars and put up with years of stress at work, and hardly see their kids. I'm not sure it's worth it."

It's not about the big house or fancy cars. I have no choice whatsoever. My former DH refused to contribute meaningfully to the household or to do any childcare so I kicked him out. I live in London and my daughter goes to school here. For me to downsize my career in any way I'd have to sell up and move out of London.

Even if I did have a choice, there's no way I would ever willingly yoke my financial future to a man's again. So many men, in a myriad of different ways, fail to live up to their obligations as fathers. Whether that's cheating, failing to pull weight domestically, neglect, financial abuse. Its absolutely rife as anyone reading these boards will see. Anyone who willingly puts their financial health in the hands of a husband or partner is gambling with theirs and their kids' future.

I totally understand why women who have the financial security of coming from a dual-income family and have a reliable other half might decide to take a step back from the stress and downsize. But please use a bit of common sense before airily telling people that careers aren't the be all and end all. No one sacrifices their children on the alter of their career for shits and giggles. We do it either out of necessity or as an insurance policy against being left up shit creek by a man.

Bollocks to that. Do what you want to do. If he doesn't want to "waste" money on a nanny, he can quit his job.

What is the reason your (not so) dh gives for not rushing home to do pickups, laundry etc himself? If it's money, then surely he would like to encourage your career so he doesn't have to shoulder the full burden of financial responsibility himself? In the long run, it will serve you both better if he were to ensure your career was not left at a standstil.

OP, I’m going to be brutal.

I’m the person you’re thinking of - both of us have maintained and progressed our careers with 1 hour commutes since having kids. Both kids have gone through a really lovely nursery.

It ONLY works if both parents are taking an equal share of the childcare load. Equal drop offs and pick ups. One person drops off, the other picks up. That way one person starts work super early, the other can stay late. Each person does two pick ups a week because most workplaces value staying late more than starting early.

You equally share the sick days, and the INSET days, and all the rest.

You get rid of the idea of whose career is more ‘important’. Your employer and colleagues don’t give a shit that your husband is more interested in progression than you are. My husband’s boss would not be very interested or impressed if he said he had to do all the pick ups because I earn twice as much and my job is more pressurised.

You have to honestly and totally treat each other’s jobs as equally important. Or it won’t work.

A nanny will save you at least an hour a day in getting kids ready, dropping them off, picking up etc. With two small kids it becomes more economically viable. In your situation and with your husband’s attitude I wouldn’t do anything else until he has made a cast-iron agreement on which days he’ll be doing pickups from the childminder.

If he wants to use a childminder he must do at least half the drop offs/pick ups and half of all household tasks. Must. He should be doing that anyway.

I have a professional career and children close in age and I accepted that for at least the first 5-6 years my salary equivalent (or a large chunk of it) would be spent on childcare. I prioritise quality time with my children when not at work (as does my husband) and reasonably limit long working hours where I can. Now I’m benefiting from a high salary, minimal childcare costs and a satisfying career I’ve worked hard for.

Do not give up your career.

I am back 4 days in a city job.

Some advice:

• Get a nanny. If your husband disagrees with this, then he needs to demonstrate that he will get home early every night, cook dinner and do more of the housekeeping etc BY ACTUALLY DOING IT NOW, not relying on your being on ML promising to do it later. But really, you need a nanny.

• one compromise, which is what I have at the moment, is to employ a nanny who has her own child. This is what I have. I have a c.30% discount for this and my nanny's child is 9 months older than mine and they get on like a house on fire (aside from occasional learning to share issues). Obvs, best to ensure you choose someone who would not favour own child, but you do get benefits of socialising your child to having another one around and having to share attention, which is where you will be once you have a sibling in the picture. I didn't really intend for this arrangement but I needed to change to nanny at short notice and nannies with own children were the only ones on my agency's books. I wouldn't swap to sole charge now. You may find that a nanny with own child may be happier to take a short term post that fits with her current childcare arrangements, but will need to change her plans in time as child qualifies for nursery/goes to school etc.

I’ve had to put my career on hold twice now. Single parent woes. It was a good career and I’m well educated (through my own means too! Worked my way through Uni and post grad)

Currently Sahm to last child who has high needs.

However I do have a brain and I have got skills I’ve developed over the years. So why shouldn’t I have used that? It’s workplace flexibility that’s the issue. I’ve contributed years at a high level. So proud of that. I can pass that onto my kids too. I know something of the outside world.

I’m hoping to get back in as I have years to go!

When you say women, you mean mothers. And you talking about your individual situation which is caused by your family dynamics since your husband somehow makes the decisions. He has decided that his career is more important and you keep facilitating it.

You can have a career. You need to agree with your husband on how things get divided. If he is against a nanny then he also has to come up with a solution on how to handle pick ups. He cannot just decide for both of you. The situation sucks but you and your husband need to be on the same page.

There is a brilliant interview with Melinda Gates where she talks about dividing housework with Bill.

I mean... no. You're also making an assumptions here that all women will eventually be mothers. I can quite easily have a career because I have no children to worry about.

Even then, it's still not true. Women don't have to stay home and look after the kids. If your child's DF is in the picture, as yours is, then it should be a joint thing.

Of course he won't do his share of the drops off and pick ups so don't even try for this because you're married to a sexist who thinks because you have a vagina that you are not as important and your role is to play the wifey.

You should really read Allison Pearson's "I don't know how she does it". All about holding down a high powered job. There's a hilarious section about the protagonist realising that she would actually be more upset if her nanny walked out than her husband. Get a nanny. They're expensive because they make such a difference.

8am-6pm in a nursery is a long day, especially for a little child with no concept of time. Many people want the money, the big house, fancy cars and put up with years of stress at work, and hardly see their kids. I'm not sure it's worth it ... What's it all for?

I really fucking hate this idea that people are just working for the fancy car. The vast majority are not.

They're working for the security, two incomes are so much more secure than one if anything goes wrong. They're working for the independence. I don't ever want to rely on a man to pay my way. I also want to provide for my own retirement, give my children every opportunity possible and give them the gift of paid for university, deposit for a flat, etc. That's absolutely worth it in my eyes.

Part time is ideal. I'm lucky now that I do four days. But many industries aren't particularly accommodating to part timers.

@thetoddleratemyhomework That’s an interesting idea I hadn’t considered before. The one issue my son has is that he needs almost constant attention and entertaining. If I start doing something else he will after a while whinge and cry until I give him attention. I don’t know if all babies are like that. My mum seems to remember that we could self entertain a bit better. Maybe he will improve soon. Do you think it could work with a nanny who brings her own child?