To be pissed off with 'the man should pay' types?

[wimbmumma]

I just find it so outdated! The only time I've ever let the man pay was, coincidentally, on my first date with my ex husband. Doesn't even cross most of me and my friends' minds that you should split it (if it is a dinner date that is) but A LOT of the schoolmums feel very differently, as they made abundantly clear at a coffee morning... so AIBU to find them a bit annoying and utterly stuck in the 19th century

I agree its outdated to expect the man to pay all the time. But with they way society is geared towards women and women roles i'll be damned if I'm working full time, doing the lions share of housework and childcare and then being told to 'split the bill because equality'. Because lets be honest so many studies have repeatedly said women do most of the unpaid labour in the home, no matter how much you bleat on about your DH doing 50/50 thats not the reality for most women.

@HelenaDove

Helena you're mixing up a lot of stuff to do with your own circumstances.

You talk about school uniforms and being able to afford stuff for your kids.

With the very greatest of respect, your own personal circumstances have nothing whatsoever to do with who pays for what when you're dating a new man.

The assumption that he has or earns more is frankly outdated, as is the outmoded belief that the man pays as its "chivalrous". Chivalry me hole!

It's demeaning and sets us up as somehow subservient and beholden.

Well fuck that. Surely you wouldn't want a new relationship based on that.

I'd much rather go on cheap dates than have a man pay all the time while I pay nothing.

@Bubs101 we're taking about dates here.

A long way from childcare, laundry and cooking.

Perhaps if we establish from the get go that we can pay our own way, and are equal in the relationship, we would stand a better chance of insisting they do their fair share.

Pay your own way, as an equal, and he can stick his 1950's ideas up his arse.

YANBU. I also find attempts to rebrand it as some kind of righteous feminist tax for the pay gap (as opposed to just being grabby) a bit silly. Playing into stereotypes doesn't do anything to dismantle the perception that men needs promotions and women don't, because "wives and girlfriends are expensive".

Also, there are significant pay gaps based on ethnicity. If I go on a date with a man from a Bangladeshi or Pakistani background, what complicated equation do we need to do to work out who pays: him because I'm a woman or me because he's from a group that is statistically disadvantaged by a pay gap?

"Perhaps if we establish from the get go that we can pay our own way, and are equal in the relationship, we would stand a better chance of insisting they do their fair share."

Yeah, this. Besides, in my experience, if you pay for yourself, it at least weeds out the men who can't handle a woman with equal earning power to them.

Where are all these men who pay for everything? Throughout my life men have preferred and sometimes expect me to pay for them

Exactly! I haven't been on many first dates (I think 5) and I've paid on 4 of them. The man hasn't even offered to split.

While I'm happy to pay myself, and I definitely don't think 'the man should always pay', I also can't be bothered to feel sorry for men who complain about this. I tell them, date different women then!

Date women like me - same age as the man, professional, average looking women. We have plenty of cash to spend on dates and are happy to do so. But men want to date beautiful women (who therefore have heaps of dating options) who are much younger (and therefore don't have as much money, they might be still studying or just getting started in their career). Well yeah, obviously those women won't be able to treat you to dinner in a five star restaurant on the regular.

@Thistle23 If someone controlled what I did on a date I would never see them again.

Meh, when we were dating (ie before we were boring with a mortgage and shared money) he would pay when we went out for things at his insistence. It would even out though really as I was living in London and would buy him stuff for his hobby (off of my own back) for him as he couldn't get it back at home as easily. I can't really get too worked up about it, as long as the man isn't expecting anything in return for paying on a first date.

The excuses that women use to justify the man paying on the first date are so funny: Paygap/women do more housework-childcare/ chivalry etc
When you go out with your friends, do you split the bill equally or is the highest-earning friend expected to pay more?
When I was dating back in the day, I never let anyone pay based on the fact he was a man, especially if he was a comparative stranger. It was a potential red flag for me if a man really insisted on paying. Maybe it is no coincidence that my DH now does half the housework/mental load etc.

I can’t get worked up about this, most people I’ve dated including DH paid on the first date and I paid on the second.

In my early 20s, I had a grad job and was dating a guy who was a student with no part time job. We split because I kept taking him out for dinner/drinks and he ‘felt guilty’ about not paying so wanted to stay in and do nothing. It didn’t bother me spending the cash, but I certainly didn’t want to sit around on the sofa of his student flat when we’d only just started dating.

Those saying the man should pay each
and every time come across as incredibly entitled and don't seem to take into account the expectations that this may create around traditional gender roles. If you want equality in your relationship then the best way is to be consistent from the outset. Not to mention the way this may make you look in the eyes of men you might be interested in.

Also, using the pay gap as an excuse is ridiculous. It doesn't necessarily hold for any two individuals and it isn't a man's responsibility to compensate you for social ills out of his own pocket anyway.

I also once dated a guy who earned way more than I did, kept inviting me out, insisted on paying (I offered) and then going ON and ON joking about how I’d ‘fleeced him’. I really couldn’t work that one out.

I would always insist on splitting the bill on at least the first few dates, then take it in turns after that. I don’t want to fall into that stereotype of being the needy little woman who needs to be paid for. I met my DP online - he’s quite well off - and he said that one of the things he liked most about me was that I was independent and wasn’t looking for someone to keep me. I think he’d had his fair share of gold diggers wanting to be kept in style.

I think going half is OK for first date (Eg OLD), but there is something sad but always splitting the bill

Much more fun if someone insists to pay the first one, and the other person say they'll pay the next one

Same with friends

It's nice to treat someone you like

But if a guy asked me out and then did not offer to pay, I'd find it weird. If it was his idea. If it was me asking someone out, I'd pay.

That probably shows my age

Meh, the person who asks the other out on a date should be the one to pay IMO 🤷🏼‍♀️ Sex shouldn't come into it.

Which is quite convenient when societal expectations are such that it is often still expected that the man does the asking.

Much more fun if someone insists to pay the first one, and the other person say they'll pay the next one.

The someone is expected to be the man though. Always. Just like who should ask someone out on a date (convenient for the “whoever does the asking pays” lot).

For me, someone not “letting” be do anything would be a huge red flag and I wouldn’t see them again.

i'll be damned if I'm working full time, doing the lions share of housework and childcare and then being told to 'split the bill because equality

Eh what now? It doesn't matter what studies show, you don't need to do the lionshare of the housework and child care, you should be aiming for an equal relationship where that's all split equally. You drop it in like because research shows women do, you should also. Raise the bar.

This is what you should have written

i'll be damned if I'm working full time, splitting the bills, and doing the lions share of housework and childcare, that will also be split equally

There is no such thing as having to do things because research shows. You get in a relationship that's equal

if a man asks me out and the date goes well, I would generally expect him to pay. From my POV, it's not me letting a man pay for me, it's a promise that I'm happy to see him again, as if he's paid for the first date, I surely owe him the cost of the second.

If I know I have naff all interest in seeing him again, I'll either insist on splitting or paying for the bill myself. Because I don't want to end our interaction in the position of me owing him anything - we're done.

Not sure all (most?) women think like that though...

YANBU. I also find attempts to rebrand it as some kind of righteous feminist tax for the pay gap (as opposed to just being grabby) a bit silly. Playing into stereotypes doesn't do anything to dismantle the perception that men needs promotions and women don't, because "wives and girlfriends are expensive".

Spot on!

Not a fan of women who expect the men to pay all the time

Turn taking is my preferred option.
Same thing applies to arranging dates/meals/days out.

It shouldn’t fall just to one person to do

I have been on enough dates to have seen plenty of women attempt the 'fake reach', scurry off to the bathroom just when it is time to settle up or just sit there looking pretty as the bill is slid across the table by the waiter in my direction. I was not one for making some big fuss or scene about who paid what on date, I did not lose too much sleep over having to pay the bill, I could afford it, but that misses the point, watching someone who earned roughly the same as me resort to such tactics (or in a few cases earned several times my salary) was just not terribly attractive and came across as a bit princessy and grabby to be honest.

As for those advocating that the man pays because he as an individual should take some collective responsibility for the crap experiences his date may have had with other men in the past, or because she has been to the hairdresser, paid for a new dress, has done more housework in the past or whatever. Seriously!!

I think you should split the bill every time until you share finances or unless one of you is really skint. I think it's also ok for one party to pay if its a special treat meal.

I don't get why it's awkward to split the bill. I'm in my 50's and always split bills when I was young. It's not a new concept. I'd have cringed if a man had 'insisted' on paying.

All my adult kids split bills when dating and when living with their partners. One son now pays for his GF a lot but that's because he now out earns her.

I don't understand why men are considered tight or cheap if they don't pay by some people while the woman is surely tight and cheap expecting him to pay.

If the bill is always split or you get into a fair taking turns routine then surely that's the fairest.

I agree that the thought the man should pay because the woman has to spend money to make herself look pretty is a really strange way of looking at it. It's really old fashioned and sexist.

It is only when women have children and go part time that the gender pay gap kicks in.

This is incorrect. Even women who don’t have children statistically end up being promoted less than men and on a different career track, just in case they activate their uterus at some point.

Whereas men who have children earn more than men who don’t.

www.vice.com/en_ca/article/9kpvpv/womens-careers-suffer-a-motherhood-penaltyeven-if-they-dont-have-kids

I still don’t think men should pay on first dates. If I were single I’d go for a split first date, then taking it in turns policy personally.

I earn plenty but I tend to date guys who also earn well. I could afford the meal but then so can he. I normally offer to split but I wouldn’t insist if he wanted to pay. I would then insist on paying on date #2.

Went out at the weekend with new guy. He paid for our brunch, I paid for tea and cake later. It broadly adds up equal.

I do, however, expect guys to open doors for me (in a subtle way) and to offer to carry a heavy bag. It’s old fashioned manners that my Dad, exH, exFIL, colleagues etc. Display. I always assumed that was just normal politeness!