To think that being in a high tax bracket doesn't mean you work 'harder'

[dietcokeandgalaxyplease]

I'm so so sick of reading about people who welcome the Tory's tax reduction for high earners because of course they 'work hard' and why should they be penalised.
AIBU to think that even though you work HARD you don't always earn a lot? I genuinely think that if you earn more you should contribute more.
I'm a nurse married to a paramedic. Neither of us are paying the higher tax rate.... obviously we need to work harder???? 😡

That’s rubbish tabby. I coasted at school And uni. I didn’t work hard academically until I was in my late 20s.

They might pay more tax but they also take home more dosh. Remember that you only get taxes at the higher rate on a subset of your earnings, not them all. If you earn more you take home more.

Although I did get a massive loan. I think that’s a slightly different argument though. My reward for that is the high pay

How can people begrudge someone in say teaching or ambulance driver their lower tax rate? They need to be able to live.

How can e

How can everyone feel so hard done by. UK inequality probably. Lowers rates of happiness.

"That’s rubbish tabby. I coasted at school And uni. I didn’t work hard academically until I was in my late 20s."
So you still worked hard and bothered didn't you as opposed to the low tax payer who didn't? Doesnt really matter when in your life you actually did it.

"How can people begrudge someone in say teaching or ambulance driver their lower tax rate? They need to be able to live."
Dont begrudge them at all, I just think its unfair if you earn more you pay more. The whole principle of that feels wrong. I dont actually know what the answer is, but it still feels wrong.

I think it depends on how you define 'works harder'?

A PP has referred to her (presumably office based) DH 'sitting on his arse all day' and compares him to a friend who is a cleaner - so they clearly equate the more physical work as working harder

For others it may be the hours that people do, for others again it may be how mentally taxing the role is, or it could be a combination of all of these.

Think about it as paying less if you earn less

@Passthecherrycoke

And the James canns of the U.K. are very few. It’s not worth worrying about them leaving.

What about people who earn £1m plus, they pay over £450k tax and NI each, there are 19,000 people who earn over £1m according to the HMRC, that’s a total tax collection of around £9,000,000,000.
It would take 1million people earning £40k (who pay around £9k tax a year each) to contribute this much tax. Do you not think £1m plus earners are mobile, would you want to lose this amount of tax?

People earning £30k, a year pay around £6k tax and NI a year and those earning £20k, pay less than £3k. Why do some of these earners think it’s Ok to claim for example that those contributing £450k should pay more?

Extract from HMRC figures:
Nearly 19,000 UK earners now on more than £1m a year. The number of people in the UK earning more than £1m a year has jumped to over 18,700, with more than one in 10 of them living in Kensington and Chelsea, according to figures released by HM Revenue & Customs.

I work hard and it’s a very stressful job at times and I am not in the higher bracket

I would like higher wages for many (not all) public service staff than tax cuts for higher earners that would be money spent in a more fair way

I’m not a high earner and just had my tax credits of £200 taken off me as I have more than 16k equity in my property only slightly more how I am meant to use that I don’t know and I know many people who have had tax credits cut since going on to universal credit

@TabbyMumz that's such a load of rubbish. Going to university doesn't necessarily mean you worked harder. Some people are not academically cut out for university, there's no point in them going and saddling themselves with huge debts if they're not going to be able to cope with the work. Going into a job straight from school doesn't mean you don't work hard.

Of course, some jobs that require degrees are harder than the ones that don't. But not all. Going to university doesn't make you superior. And plenty of people that went there earn less than those who didn't! My ex didn't even do GCSEs and he earns over £50k in his profession so he pays higher rate tax.

Yes but are we under any threat of them leaving @scubadive?

I know some people who earn over £1m, and they are partners in law or accountancy practises. They are very valuable people in society but they’re not anymore likely to
Move abroad than anyone else

And as for very high earners paying more we are all aware of the tax loop holes that accountants use that allow people to pay far less tax that what they should be paying

I have known people on 200k plus who pay very little (around 10%) in tax because it can all be legally done

“For others it may be the hours that people do, for others again it may be how mentally taxing the role is, or it could be a combination of all of these.”

I agree with this, I occasionally have to fire people as part of my role and find it horrendously stressful. I suspect most people would struggle to do that, and generally it’s reflected in the pay

Hard work is undoubtedly essential, but there is a whole lot of luck involved too - natural ability, family background, financial advantages, being in the right place at the right time. People are absolutely kidding themselves if they believe that they're better off solely because of hard work.

I 100% agree with this, I earn a big salary but I don't believe that it is because I work harder than anyone else, I know I have had a few lucky breaks along the way. I also think that it is self perpetuating as it is easier to put in extra hours etc when you can afford the support of shipping out ironing etc

I know I am lucky and I don't begrudge paying the level of tax I do, but feel that I already fairly contribute to 'the pot' as an individual

Tabby I worked hard at school and uni and am a teacher at the highest rate with extra responsibilities. I don’t earn absolutely masses but would still pay more tax to help those with less and would also benefit from it myself having a better nhs, more funding for schools and better childcare and transport etc.

The thing is, I teach SEN disabled kids. For some of them it doesn’t matter how hard they work, they won’t get a top paying job. Society encompasses all sorts of people and some have learning difficulties, are ill, have mental health problems, have to care for others etc etc. So many are simply not in a position to work hard get a good job and earn a lot. We need to look after each other!

I’ve also seen first hand the cuts the Tory government has made to vulnerable children’s services. Fewer staff, old equipment, authorities in debt having to choose where to cut jobs etc etc.

I really like to think those earning a huge amount or even a decent wage understand their privileged position and want to give back.

So ‘fairness’ is much more complex than everyone paying the same percentage. At the very least it’s everyone having access to health care, a home, warmth, education, food and a social life.

@TeachesOfPeaches

You have my sympathy, the tax system is immoral. Why should you as a single mum earn £70k and pay £21k tax and NI, while a couple earning £35k each would pay £7.5k each, ie) £15k on their joint £70k.

It’s a result of the tax the rich system. You will have more need for child care, babysitting costs compared to a couple on the same income and yet pay more tax.

But many posters on here would have you paying even more tax.

I think income tax should be a flat 20% across the board. then everyone is taxed equally

About 10-15 years ago I did actually work out at what rate a flat tax would have to be set, assuming no changes to levels of public spending, NI to be combined with income tax and the personal allowance to be at a level that ensured no-one in the poorer half of the population was worse off.

I think the figure came out at something like 44%. (Actually there was a range of figures, depending on how big you made the personal allowance. I'd actually go for setting the figure at 50%, which I think should be a ceiling on we can aim for, and giving the extra money raised back via a bigger personal allowance)

If 44% surprises you, consider that employment income falling in the basic rate band is (or was at the time) taxed at about 38%, once you take into account all NI. (i.e. including employer NI.)

I don't support marginal tax rates above 50%. We're already exceeding that for the highest earners, and higher rate earners are only just under that threshold. In my view the only scope for tax increases on earnings would therefore be to raise the basic-rate burden from circa 38% to nearer 50%. I won't hold my breath waiting for a politician to propose that.

My own experience: spent ten years in NMW entry level, often zero hour contract jobs. Retail, food delivery, factory work, food service etc. During that time worked on my skills, went into further education (all while continuing to work full time in the above jobs), then at 26 qualified in one of the professions and started to earn a bit better. At 26 my first graduate job paid £18k, and now at 31 I’m on around £40k. I work in mental health.

When you take a snapshot of my day to day work, I agree that a day of work now is absolutely nowhere near as ‘hard work’ as the day of work spent making pizzas in a takeaway or on a factory production line or selling computers to the public. It’s not even comparable. I have features of my job now that make it so much ‘easier’ in many respects: status, respect, flexi time so I set my own hours, the ability to work from home so I can work around life admin stuff, lots of freedom and mental stimulation. I don’t think I work as ‘hard’ as I did when I was in those previous jobs (though I’m paid more for my knowledge and skills and capacity to manage risk as opposed to what my body can achieve per hour as when I was shelf stacking).

BUT, what you have to take into account is the amount of work it’s taken to get to this point. Really, really hard work. While my colleagues at a department store might have only had that job as their main focus and then had free time outside to see friends, have kids, enjoy hobbies, i generally balanced working full time with studying full time for many years. So I’d get on shift at 5pm for pizza delivery having already worked eight hours that day at an unpaid placement or a voluntary job in the field I wanted to break into. When I finished at midnight my coworkers went home and slept while I stayed up until 3am writing a thesis for my course.

I’ve spent around six years full time studying at university to get to where I am now, plus other courses part time and voluntary work outside of the courses, and never let up on working full time simultaneously (notably a two year stretch of eighty hour weeks which almost killed me haha). So while I don’t think I work anywhere near as hard now as I did in NMW jobs, I had to work a hell of a lot harder to get here than most people I was working alongside at the time.

So sometimes pay doesn’t just reflect what you do in an average day, but what it’s taken over many years to get there.

"TabbyMumzthat's such a load of rubbish. Going to university doesn't necessarily mean you worked harder. Some people are not academically cut out for university, there's no point in them going and saddling themselves with huge debts if they're not going to be able to cope with the work. Going into a job straight from school doesn't mean you don't work hard."

I didn't say they worked harder than someone who didn't....but they certainly took time out to do it as opposed to someone who didn't, and because they did, they should at least be able to keep more of the money they earn

Extract from HMRC figures:
Nearly 19,000 UK earners now on more than £1m a year. The number of people in the UK earning more than £1m a year has jumped to over 18,700, with more than one in 10 of them living in Kensington and Chelsea, according to figures released by HM Revenue & Customs.

if these high earners benefit very low earners in a trickle down economy, then why haven’t we seen the low earners and public services etc benefit? All I’m seeing with that is the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

"Going to university doesn't make you superior."....it does mean you've taken time out to educate yourself further about stuff that ultimately possibly helps science, industry, medicine etc though doesnt it which ultimately the country and the people in it benefit from. (Depending on what the degree is in of course).

"My ex didn't even do GCSEs and he earns over £50k in his profession so he pays higher rate tax."......interesting word you use there ie profession. Professional roles usually require qualifications?

@TabbyMumz but they do get to keep some of that money. If you're on a higher tax rate salary you're still going to bring home more than someone on minimum wage, even paying more tax.