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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Young people should take responsibility for themselves, not the state?

230 replies

Chattybum · 08/11/2019 05:45

Quote from Jeremy Corbyn - "Think of the young people who are given the subliminal message to look after your own education and look after your own health forget about council housing, make your own way in the world. It’s depressing, it’s unnecessary and it’s all part of the contraction of the public realm and the public state."

I'm not a fan of JC and this statement perfectly sums up why. AIBU to ask why people like this idea without this turning into a bun fight?

OP posts:
ReanimatedSGB · 08/11/2019 10:44

@Chattybum, in what way is increasing the state's provision of housing, healthcare and education reducing choices?

lampygirl · 08/11/2019 10:46

With money you can opt out now - pay for private education or private health care or buy a house where ever you want.

Only you can't, because you still have to pay via taxes for the state support whether you use it or not. I think people should take responsibility for themselves, using the NHS example, taking responsibility is living a healthy and active lifestyle, not smoking or drinking to excess, illegal drugs etc. I would be in favour of a National Insurance Card based system whereby it was proof of up to date NI contributions, travel insurance or pay up. Having used other European healthcare I did not feel violated being asked to pay for a service that locals received through their local means which might include state insurance, though the hospital were happy to deal with my holiday insurance direct if I'd not been able to so I wouldn't have had to physically pay, just prove I had means to cover the service (sunday evening, relatively low amount, just paid and claimed back).

I think Corbyn pushing his high tax 'for the rich' agenda is scaring off middle-income professionals who earn enough to have a comfortable life fully self funded as far as possible (own own home, no kids, minimal user of NHS), but losing £100 a month or so could make a genuine difference to this for the worse. I know someone will come on here with the over 80k is £20 a month so 30K will be OK, but when does it stop.

I think we need to do more to support those who really need the help though no fault of their own, but it needs to be done efficiently, just throwing money at things doesn't always fix it.

Trewser · 08/11/2019 10:46

Because sometimes private companies do things more efficiently and better, particularly in the healthcare sector.

Chattybum · 08/11/2019 10:55

@ReanimatedSGB I'm impressed with your very neat oversimplification. It reduces choice because it forces people to rely on the state by removing alternatives.

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HeyMissyYouSoFine · 08/11/2019 10:56

Only you can't, because you still have to pay via taxes for the state support whether you use it or not.

You still benefit form education of others - teachers, nurses, doctors plumbers hair dressers, carers.

Poor education and prison are also linked - so you could just ended up paying another way.

I'd like an education system generally good enough good that more/most people didn't feel the need to go private.

Chattybum · 08/11/2019 11:13

I think most of the world would kill for an education in the UK as it goes. I think more people should take responsibility for making the most of it or encouraging their children to.

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Chattybum · 08/11/2019 11:14

It's so precious and it's just being abused by people who take it for granted.

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Cornettoninja · 08/11/2019 11:19

@Chattybum your argument is flawed because you’re working on the presumption that all of this would be affordable in a free market. U.K. history shows this is not the case with plenty of modern day examples available.

At the moment you have the option to ‘upgrade’ in all the sectors you have used. Best of both I think (when it works properly).

What you’re saying is ‘ban cheap toilet paper and everyone can use quilted’ when the reality is large swathes of people will just be wiping their arse with newspaper.

Passthecherrycoke · 08/11/2019 11:22

Someone using private healthcare and education must still pay taxes. Primarily because they benefit from public services they don’t self fund, like the justice system. Secondly because independence now does not guarantee it forever - people use the majority of their healthcare in the last 4 years of their life when they are least likely to be paying for private healthcare

toomuchtooold · 08/11/2019 11:26

I find it grim that the state already plays god with where people are housed, how, when and how much it costs. How the state decides where your child will be educated, what they will learn and what it will and won't fund on the NHS

I actually agree with this. I live in Germany where we have socialised private healthcare with private provision and it's a lot better than the UK. The main benefit as I see it is that because you have a market mechanism, people can vote with their feet, and you always have some kind of choice - if you just cannot stick your local GP for whatever reason, there's always the option to go to the one in the next town, and they will happily take you because your money goes with you. The NHS is like it or lump it; good services get swamped and have to do more with less because funding decisions don't follow the patient in the same way as they do in a system like Germany's, and bad services continue to run because people have often got no option but to use them. And because the NHS has become this political football in the UK, it's almost impossible to reform it - desperate to defend it from being dismantled and cut even further, leftwingers adopt this "god bless the NHS" attitude which silences the voices of people whom it's treated badly. I felt like that. I had a shitty old time with the NHS when I was having miscarriages and whenever I tried to talk to my friends about it they didn't want to know because rule number one is we all love the NHS. Maybe that's why so many older people are still supporting the Tories.

Trewser · 08/11/2019 11:27

Couldnt agree more toomuchtooold

Velveteenfruitbowl · 08/11/2019 11:32

@FridalovesDiego because when you say the state you actually mean a minority of tax payers. I don’t owe healthcare of education to anyone except my own children. I recognition of that I try to limit my burden to a minimum (unfortunately British society is set up to make it impossible not to use state funded services). I have paid for everything that it is possible to pay for myself. I don’t think anyone else is responsible for paying for my needs. Likewise I don’t want to be dependent on anyone (least of all politicians) to make decisions about my access to healthcare/education. I can see the way that other people’s votes are bought with promises of more money and I don’t want to be that kind of person.

Preggosaurus9 · 08/11/2019 11:34

@Chattybum thinks JC is a commie

forces people to rely on the state by removing alternatives. Hmm

Dontdisturbmenow · 08/11/2019 11:35

There will always be some level of inequality whatever government is in place, sadly it's inevitable but why is it that everyone we mention inequalities, we refer to what we don't have control over and ignore the inequalities that arise from the choices individual make?

Take two 17yo doing their Aevels, the inequality at this point might be small, but if one opt to get a part time job afterwards, making little effort to look fora FT job because it suits to work fewer hours, then decide to have a baby with her boyfriend at 20, when he is still on nnw, then go on to have 2 more, of course they are likely to end up in a worse position at 30 or 40 than the other girl who chose to go to Uni, get a reasonable paid job ft, aspire to get to the next level, and wait until she's been with her partner 5 years, both of them buying a flat to start with and then a house before having a child, stopping at 2, and returning to work ft after the second is 4.

Moaning of inequality at this point is self defeating. Whatever the government, our lives will always be much more determined by the choices we make than what society pays in tax and how politicians decide to allocate it.

Aridane · 08/11/2019 11:43

Bloody hell - JC's statement is so unremarkable it's nearly a platitude.

Even the Universal Declaration on Human Rights references these.

Article 25 states: "Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services."

RuffleCrow · 08/11/2019 11:48

We're a society. We all depend on one another. When we're young and starting out in life, or older and experiencing adversity it is entirely reasonable that we expect a state insfrastucture to help and support us while we get on our feet - just as it was there for older generations.

Thatcherite cult of individualism has had its day. Even the Tories now acknowlege this.

ReanimatedSGB · 08/11/2019 11:51

Thing is, even the super-rich have to rely to some extent on the state. Even if they, themselves, never leave their houses, their employees and the people bringing them goods and services have to travel on state-maintained roads, for instance. And you bet they run screaming to The State if anyone else tries to interfere with them, or steal from them, or threaten them...

HeyMissyYouSoFine · 08/11/2019 11:54

DH and I both went to bog standard state comprehensive schools - and had subject specialist in all lessons at secondary. Our kids aren't getting that and it’s not all to do with money. 'severe' teacher shortages

I don't think banning private schools is helpful there - but I do think more could be done to stop standards falling- no least look at teacher work loads.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 08/11/2019 11:56

Good luck to the people who think if you have private health insurance then you shouldn't need to contribute to the NHS, when you develop a chronic or incurable illness, or your treatment doesn't go to plan and you end up having a ife threatening complication in your private hospital, or the condition that you have requires specialist treatment only available in a hospital not covered by your insurance...what do you suppose happens then? You are sent into the NHS, that's what.

Private health companies cherry pick what conditions they treat. Fine if you are having a simple low risk procedure. Not so fine if you develop a serious complication (where you'll be transferred out of your private hospital into the nearest NHS hospital) or if you have s complex condition that requires specialist treatment. Yes, having private treatment may well open up choices not available on the NHS but you need hold plated insurance or be able to afford to self fund to be confident of getting this treatment.

RuffleCrow · 08/11/2019 12:01

Or if potholes damage the Lotus, @ReanimatedSGB Grin

Chattybum · 08/11/2019 12:07

At the moment you have the option to ‘upgrade’ in all the sectors you have used. Best of both I think (when it works properly).

I have no problem with the current system as you say, when it works. I was asking why people do.

What you’re saying is ‘ban cheap toilet paper and everyone can use quilted’ when the reality is large swathes of people will just be wiping their arse with newspaper.

Hahaha! See now there is the divide! I on the other hand think Jeremy Corbyn is saying ban all quilted and we can all have newspaper... And then we run out of newspaper we can ALL use our hands. But at least we will all be doing it together.

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Trewser · 08/11/2019 12:14

Good luck to the people who think if you have private health insurance then you shouldn't need to contribute to the NHS who thinks that?

Packingsoapandwater · 08/11/2019 12:28

Just a point here ... the state does subsidise STEM undergrad degrees. Students may pay £9k pa, but the actual cost of delivering those programmes is far higher. For a medical degree, you are looking at about £20K to £25k a year; state subsidy for Home/EU student is why student numbers are capped in these disciplines.

I read that Corbyn statement and just thought ... what the hell is he trying to say here? Because to me, it just reads as though it is the job of everyone else to ensure young people get the grades they need, behave in a healthy manner, have somewhere to live and are channeled into a job. It reads as though the responsibility lays on teachers, nurses, doctors, housing officials, and careers advisors and businesses to deliver young people a life.

There's just too much of these types of expectations already, and it is already destroying the teaching and medical profession.

In reality, a young person has to be responsible for their own learning, their own health, their own lives. Yes, the state can provide free education and training to 18, and subsidise higher education. The state can provide free to access healthcare (when very few other countries in the world do so).

But ultimately, it is the responsibility of a young person to sit down and study and pay attention in class, to not smoke or drink excessively, to exercise and not spend hours in a sedentary activity eating processed food, and to become a productive member of society.

And the notion that it is depressing and unnecessary to tell young people they have to make their own way in the world? Well, who else is going to do it for them? What is he saying here? That the state should tell you what you are to do in life? It's bizarre. Unless you assume he thinks trade and profession allocation under the Soviet system was a good idea.

And I have never understood this obsession with council housing. What is so wonderful about housing owned by the local council where the cost of all maintenance is a public liability in perpetuity?

Surely, it would be far more sensible to state-sponsor non-profit building companies to build on state-acquired land, and operate zero-interest purchase agreements. So you would pay rent every month, and the place would be yours after 25 years once you've paid back the cost of the build (the state would retain ownership of the land under a leasehold agreement). Roughly speaking, under the system, a new three bed semi in most regions would work out as a monthly rent of £300 for 25 years.

So the state subsidises, but there is also a transfer of wealth to those unable to afford their own homes. After all, this was the thinking behind the original RTB policy under Labour, which was a bloody good idea and, of course, it was a good idea because it was post-war Labour and they actually understood working-class people and wanted better for them.

And the state would start to increase their land ownership, which is frankly appalling low in a lot of areas.

Oliversmumsarmy · 08/11/2019 12:30

I am presuming MrsMaiselsMuff that you are older than the 18-21 year olds who make up the majority of those at university.

I don’t agree that it is an old fashioned stereotype to say university students are out drinking several times per week.

Dd has a lot of friends at Universities up and down the country

One of her friends is quite proud of the fact she has battled terrible hangovers and is the only one who hasn’t missed a lecture so far this term.
Sometimes she has been the only one to make it to a lecture.

None of her friends post anything on SM other than them drinking in some pub or club.

horse4course · 08/11/2019 12:40

The people who think you shouldn't get something for nothing always turn out to also be against inheritance tax (getting something for nothing)