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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Young people should take responsibility for themselves, not the state?

230 replies

Chattybum · 08/11/2019 05:45

Quote from Jeremy Corbyn - "Think of the young people who are given the subliminal message to look after your own education and look after your own health forget about council housing, make your own way in the world. It’s depressing, it’s unnecessary and it’s all part of the contraction of the public realm and the public state."

I'm not a fan of JC and this statement perfectly sums up why. AIBU to ask why people like this idea without this turning into a bun fight?

OP posts:
HideYourBabiesAndYourBeadwork · 08/11/2019 08:48

Society has a responsibility to educate its citizens, take care of their health and make it possible/provide somewhere safe for them to live. At least, it does in the kind of society I want to live in.

I’m not Corbyn’s biggest fan btw. Also I find it a bit rich for older generations to complain about young people wanting/expecting all of the above when it’s what the generations before have had.

LakieLady · 08/11/2019 08:49

Wait lists in some areas in the U.K. exceed ten years.

A council on the south coast will admit, but only privately, that people going on the housing register will probably never get social housing.

Trewser · 08/11/2019 08:49

Why? Don't you think the super rich can afford more tax?

Yes! But it will not raise enough and will cause huge division. I have been used to Sweden (where the healthcare service faces the same challenges and also ususes private providers before anyone tells me again how wonderful it is there) where everyone over the tax threshold pays a lot if tax. Its a good system.

PettyContractor · 08/11/2019 08:52

Council housing actually makes economic sense

You comment (including the elaboration I didn't quote) is an example of left-wing thinking that fills me with despair. There is no economic magic that makes housing substantially cheaper because it's owned by a political authority. There can't be, that's not how economics works. If it looks substantially cheaper, it just means you're not doing the accounting properly.

Honestly, although I see myself as a right-winger, I could get behind what left-wing people in the UK want to achieve, in terms of redistribution. I could accept their "what" must be done, if they in turn would accept my "how", because their "how" involves ideas and methods that cause invisible damage to the economy.

toomuchtooold · 08/11/2019 08:55

I wish someone somewhere would do an analysis of Corbyn's policies and see what European countries it put us on a par with. Tories are going on like it would be Stalinist Russia but I suspect it would be more like one of those kind of reasonable social market countries like the Netherlands or Belgium.

Private renting is just a massive cash cow for richer people. I remember during and after the financial crisis, buy to let kept growing because even though investors were still pouring in, lack of availability of mortgages for FTB kept rents high relative to mortgages, and lack of house building kept supply low. It was the only investment that was making anyone any money. The big house builders are not going to increase the supply enough to bring down house prices - one of the reasons they do land banking or land hoarding is exactly to ensure that house prices stay high to maximise their profits. With ever increasing numbers of households in the UK, and house building not keeping up with demand, it doesn't matter how well individuals do in their careers, at the aggregate level it's just the same people playing musical chairs with the same inadequate housing stock and if someone works harder or gets a degree and a better job that extra money just goes into the housing bidding war. People who hold wealth already get a good bite of the cherry in the form of dividends and capital growth of companies. Then, they get a second bite of the cherry because any increases in income that workers make end up in their rent. This is why it would be a piece of piss for the government to build council houses and make a profit off them while keeping rents at a level where people could work in an average job and have a decent lifestyle. We could share the dividend that would otherwise go to landlords between renters and the government. With adequate supply, you could make it easier for people to move from a council house in one area to another, which would help to reduce structural unemployment and support young people in their efforts to get their careers off the ground. Why would you not go in for such an obviously excellent idea? Because your rich mates who put you in number 10 wouldn't like it? Because as a voter, you've had to sign yourself up to paying a few hundred grand towards someone else's retirement just so you could live in a house close enough to your work that you get to see your kids before they go to bed?

Compassion starts with self-compassion. We all had to struggle under this system but imagine if we were the last generation that had to struggle. Just because it was hard for us doesn't mean that there's something morally pure about it being hard for everyone. We could just solve this fucking problem and it would go away. Same for health and education. Decide that our legacy is going to be that our children don't have to work the way we worked, that they will be able to go into their lives and careers and take risks and do cool new things, safe in the knowledge that if it doesn't all go according to plan, there's a basic safety net that will hold them up?

There's this idea that people want to be lazy, that a safety net enables layabouts, and it's bullshit. Nobody wants to be that lazy. Nobody wants to do nothing. The vast majority of people want to work, they want meaningful work that they can be proud to do. It makes you a part of society, it makes you proud, it makes you feel like a human being. But when you can't find work that will let you live - when there's no decent jobs where you live, when it's zero hours contracts and short notice and you can't fit it in with looking after your kids, when you don't know from one week to the next how much you'll be living on, when you can't pay an average rent off an average wage - then our society is broken. And it's time we fucking fixed it.

badgermushrooms · 08/11/2019 08:57

Schools should be better funded, but again that won’t solve the fundamental problem which I think is that 25% of pupils have SEN. All the money in the world is not going to help a teacher teach 30 kids when 5 or 6 of them have significant problems.

Money = qualified teaching assistants to support those kids so that the teacher isn't spread so thin. Many schools in England are having to cut those posts because their funding (relative to costs) has dropped so low they're literally struggling to keep the lights on. If not money, what else do you think will help?

Re housing, many many people have been spot on: after the initial investment, council housing pays for itself both in the cost of actually building the building, and in wider societal benefits eg better health, proximity to employment opportunities (if properly planned), ability to keep kids settled in one school rather than having to move them every time a private LL wants to cash in, etc etc.

It's a no brainer, unless your personal policy guideline is "regardless of need, why should someone else get something I haven't got?" which unfortunately is becoming a very widespread principle.

WorldEndingFire · 08/11/2019 08:59

PettyContractor, your comment is an example of right-wing hubris that fills me with despair. With no citation or qualification for your knowledge of economics you confidently assert something can't be done, is improperly done if done differently, and arrogantly give the suggestion that only those who think in your terms know the best and only way.

BeardyButton · 08/11/2019 09:02

So oddly unreflective. Boomers have been prioritised over younger generations. Free ed, better health care, better environment and a low interest rate environment to protect house prices.... But ya, these moaning young people should just put up and shut up.

AgnesGrundy · 08/11/2019 09:02

Tony Blair did set up the devaluing of the bachelor degree by setting the 50% target - he screwed up there because it increases the length of the race to the benefit of those who have parents able to support them longest in the end.

A bachelor's degree is now worth rather less than A levels were 30 years ago when less than 20% of 18 year olds passed A levels.

Jobs which used to require good O levels now prefer a good bachelor's degree...

The fact that with the exception of certain specific vocational degrees it's actually your masters that matters in the sense of a bachelor's degree being a base level generic qualification and a master's being career subject specific has pros and cons. The main pro being the flexibility to choose career directions when you're a little more clued up and mature. One of the cons being the increased length of time in education for people from backgrounds where the length of time before starting full time work is unthinkable, but also the lack or perceived lack of in depth subject knowledge.

I thought of doing a British psychological society recognised psychology conversion masters a few years ago but in the non UK country I live in it wouldn't qualify me to go on to further training as a psychologist because the depth of subject knowledge acquired in just a master's programme is judged insufficient - both bachelor's and master's degrees in psychology are required. I've ended up doing another vocational undergraduate degree instead.

The same issue of the UK system widely treating a bachelor's degree as just a general indicator of a base level of education is also the reason UK teaching qualifications are not recognised in the EU country I live in - a combined bachelor's and master's programme in education is required, not a degree in your primary subject and a one year post graduate certificate in education plus an NQT supervision year.

Undergraduate degrees have certainly become devalued, but making people pay to get them makes this worse not better!

Passthecherrycoke · 08/11/2019 09:13

@PettyContractor I’ve read your post numerous times but still don’t understand what you mean. The model the PP described is exactly how council housing works - initial investment, rental income for perpitutiy (although it’s usually only modelled for 30 years) income covers repairs and services. Capital investments are depreciated and add to the asset value.

This model is the same for the council, housing associations, BTL landlords (if they bothered doing one)

What do you disagree with about it? Confused

BlueGingerale · 08/11/2019 09:14

In Sweden you have to pay for prescriptions and to visit the Dr.

And social housing is the same as private rental. It has not special benefits’

Curtainly · 08/11/2019 09:21

I think degrees in healthcare and teaching should be free from tuition fees, not only are we short of them, but the placements more or less equate to work. I don't think uni should be free for everyone though, and I'm saying this as someone who went without any parental support and took the maximum loan and worked; if you're paying for someone to do a degree in architecture, where they go on to earn big bucks, why shouldn't they pay? Plus many students with parents who are well off pay tuition fees up front, yes unfair to those who take a loan (but what isn't), but they're obviously not going to pay if it's free, that's quite a substantial amount lost. I don't begrudge paying a % every month as I wouldn't be on the money I'm on without a degree, but if substantially more people had degrees it won't be long until retail jobs etc as for one- where does that leave the people who didn't pursue uni?

Free bus passes for under 26's i saw somewhere, I don't really think it should be a catch all on that, bus companies are already struggling. How about free for anyone in education, those on apprentiships, perhaps widen accessibility to those who for medical reasons have a pass etc. As for the NHS, there's no point just throwing more money at it, it needs a drastic overhaul in its procurement processes and estates; that would benefit everyone of course, but they want that under 26 vote so are focussing on that but it would benefit us all.

Homes are more of a beast, where to even begin.

Has their manifesto been published yet? I've had a look on their website but I can only find the 2017 one?

ReanimatedSGB · 08/11/2019 09:26

I think part of the impetus behind encouraging more and more people to go to university was, to be blunt, a way of keeping them off the unemployment figures. And when 'getting a degree' started being the main route into employment in all sorts of jobs where a degree isn't relevant, things got messier. University education never used to be the first stages of career-training: the idea was that you got a degree and it showed you were a more rounded individual capable of academic study (apart from a few specific careers like law or medicine.) The devaluing of apprenticeships (where you learned job-specific skills while being paid) in favour of degrees (which started expanding into quite a lot of silly, badly-designed courses) made things worse.

Another big problem we have at present is the fetishisation of work for work's sake - when 'work' means paid employment and nothing else. Most people want to work in that they want to do something productive and rewarding with their time, but it suits the rich and powerful to focus on pitting the 'hard working' against the 'idle' and push the idea that hard work is all you need to succeed.
This is absolute bullshit. The people who work the hardest in the most essential jobs (care work, waste disposal, food production etc) are usually paid the least. Most of the current political class, the ones who make the most noise about hard work, have little or no experience of employment themselves (straight from Oxbridge into political flunky work via family friends etc). Somewhere in between are all those people who know their jobs are essentially pointless and often barely pay them enough to live on (all the cubicle mice) and the ones whose jobs give a certain amount of genuine satisfaction and pride but inadequate pay.

The last 30+ years or so of deregulating the markets have been a disaster. 'Trickle down' economics was a theory which has been shown not to work at all. We cannot fix the current mess without taking money from the rich and giving it to the poor.

Passthecherrycoke · 08/11/2019 09:29

I love your post @ReanimatedSGB

Chattybum · 08/11/2019 09:31

@ReanimatedSGB
Most of the current political class, the ones who make the most noise about hard work, have little or no experience of employment themselves (straight from Oxbridge into political flunky work via family friends etc).

People like oh I don't know, Jeremy Corbyn for example?

OP posts:
Passthecherrycoke · 08/11/2019 09:32

That’s what she said Chattybum

Trewser · 08/11/2019 09:36

I think this harking back to university as a place that used to be serious and elitist is a misplaced piece of nostalgia.

Chattybum · 08/11/2019 09:38

@Passthecherrycoke please explain what you mean.

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HeyMissyYouSoFine · 08/11/2019 09:39

It’s in the states interest to have a healthy (saving NHS long term) and educated (employable) public.

^^ This.

I don't think we have it correct at the minute - a European style of health service may well be better than cash starved NHS we currently have - and education, including vocational, needs looking and funding better at pretty much every level.

I've lived in damp poor quality private rentals and it did impact on our health - council housing started out as decent housing for working people a way of improving the housing stock - to get away from the legacy of slum estates from time when housing was left to the private sector with light if any regulation.

I don’t think Jeremy Corbyn is necessarily the answer – but I don’t think caring about people in late teens and 20s is unreasonable.

Passthecherrycoke · 08/11/2019 09:40

You’re asking her if she includes Jeremy Corbyn.

That’s what she said. Why would the “current political class” exclude him?

WaterSheep · 08/11/2019 09:40

Chattybum Please can you explain why what JC has said, sums up why you dislike him? What is it about the statement that you disagree with?

DGRossetti · 08/11/2019 09:42

Taking the OPs starting point, you quickly find yourself asking what the fuck you're paying all that tax for then.

Chattybum · 08/11/2019 09:42

@Trewser I agree. I think there is a lot of comparisons being drawn to a particular fluke in history in the post war years. Could it be that perhaps when the planets aligned, the population was desimated and the UK was trying to recover, that policies and ideals were set into action that we have since found couldn't be sustained due to changes in demographics, attitudes and globalisation?

OP posts:
EagleVisionSquirrelWork · 08/11/2019 09:43

AIBU to ask why people like this idea without this turning into a bun fight?

I must say I'm impressed at how many posters are indulging this idiotic, goady OP with serious, thoughtful analysis of complex issues. I came on the thread to tell her/him to fuck off, so well done everyone else. Smile

Chattybum · 08/11/2019 09:44

Another genuine question based on my last one which asked which generations we are now comparing ourselves to.

Thank you for clearing that up by the way @Passthecherrycoke

OP posts: