Young people should take responsibility for themselves, not the state?

[Chattybum]

Quote from Jeremy Corbyn - "Think of the young people who are given the subliminal message to look after your own education and look after your own health forget about council housing, make your own way in the world. It’s depressing, it’s unnecessary and it’s all part of the contraction of the public realm and the public state."

I'm not a fan of JC and this statement perfectly sums up why. AIBU to ask why people like this idea without this turning into a bun fight?

So you essentially want to go back to 1860?

Okay then but I don’t think half the people who believe they’re secure actually would be without state intervention whether directly or indirectly.

As an aside it always makes me chuckle to see people say ‘well I was brought up on a council estate and look how successful and independent I am today’. Exactly - you are the result of state provision and it’s intentions.

I grew up in a council house and I now live in social housing, but I had to wait over 10 years to leave private renting and I am no longer young 😭.

I did not expect social housing but I don’t think I can convey to anyone who hasn’t been in that system, how different it is to private renting and how much I appreciate it. The developers can build social housing at low cost, they just have to meet 25% target. I pay 80% of market rate rental value and they look after my central heating system, electricity and the overall structure of my property. Everything else is my responsibility and I now have a secure home for at least 5 years. I no longer have to claim housing benefit and I am no longer lining the pockets of a con man millionaire landlord who treats his tenants like vermin (which is where I was stuck before!)

I was born and grew up in the South of England. My parents could not afford to support me through uni, so I did not go and I cannot afford to pay for my children to go to uni either

As for hard work - I’m a single mum and have never been unemployed. I have worked multiple jobs at once and done all kinds of different things to try to make ends meet. I find it so demoralising when the Tory policy is constantly centred around ‘making hard work pay’ as if I am a lazy old scrounger. How could I work any harder? But it isn’t that - despite however hard I work, I am not going to be part of society who earns enough to buy properties, has uni graduate children and walk around with my head high that I am not a ‘drain on society’. I probably am - but I honestly do not know how to resolve that anymore, as no matter how many hours I put into my working week, or how many hours I spend educating myself and learning I am still in the under class. And I can’t get out of that under a Tory gov

@EagleVisionSquirrelWork thanks for that. It was exactly that sort of comment I was hoping to avoid. I'm interested in hearing from people with alternative views to my own, clearly you are not so perhaps this isn't the thread for you.

@Passthecherrycoke

isn’t this indicating the higher education system is failing people? Or is it just that you’re misapplying the idea?
Very few degrees qualify you for a career, professional or otherwise. Why is this?

The main question should be what is education for? Is it to enable you to do one specific career or to allow you to apply the skills you have learnt in your degree in a range of careers to meet changing circumstances?

People choose their first degrees on average at 17/18 an then start working at 21/22. The state pension age is 67. That's 45/46 years in work.

It is unrealistic to expect someone to choose what they want to do as a career at 18 and still be doing exactly the same role at 67. Apart from changes in personal circumstances, there are also economic and technical factors.

For example the car industry doesn't really exist any more how it use to in the late 20th Century, while the technology industry has loads more jobs with some that didn't even exist 5 years ago. Not everyone in the technology industry is under 30 so how do they have the skills to do those jobs?

I assume anyone who thinks that we shouldn't rely on anyone for our own health pays for private health care? Otherwise you're still relying on the NHS when you need it. But you shouldn't be really, you have an income, pay for your own health care.

I don't agree with that by the way, but I find it odd that people tell young people to pay for their own health care when the majority don't do the same.

Anyone should have access to council housing if they need it. The problem is the abusers who don't want to bother working, and the selling of council houses. They should never be sold on. Sometimes life isn't fair, you don't need to own a house and let's face it with your house being used for your care in old age, it's unlikely your kids will get the money regardless unless you plan on dying young.

Nothing you can do about the abusers though. Unless you fancy turfing them out onto a park bench.

Op what are you aiming to get out of this thread? You don't seem to want to discuss the point you're making, or answer questions posters are putting to you.

@Passthecherrycoke

I could dig out a load of statistics but it would be more fruitful for you to start talking to people around you especially those at different levels in your workplaces. Find out how they got into their role and what they started out doing. (This is why I never look down on cleaners, security guards, receptionists, waiting staff etc.)

Don’t patronise me- just dig out the stats if you want to make a point backed up by evidence.

Definitely @Curtainly

Glad my dd did hers before they stopped the funding and you are doing work on the wards and long hours for free so you shouldn't have to pay fees imo

Apt username, OP

Many members of my extended family left the country in the 60s because they couldn't see decent opportunities here.

There are parts of the country and in our 40s we can never afford to live in including around where I was born and grew up.

This is out of date 2008 but:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1579345/Biggest-brain-drain-from-UK-in-50-years.html

No other nation is losing so many qualified people, it points out. Britain has now lost more than one in 10 of its most skilled citizens, while overall only Mexico has had more people emigrate.

I'd worry if we don't do something it could increasingly be an issue again which is is even more of an issue with an aging population being supported out of tax from the current working population..

Thank you to everyone who has taken the trouble to reply. I sought to understand why anyone would actively WANT the state to play such a large role in their lives.

In my view an ideal world would be where very few people would be in a position to have to rely on the state. I think this because ultimately when you are at the mercy of 'The State' to provide for you, you have very little choice in what happens to you.

I find it grim that the state already plays god with where people are housed, how, when and how much it costs. How the state decides where your child will be educated, what they will learn and what it will and won't fund on the NHS.

Why would this be different under a more powerful state who would also seek to take away choice from the people who are lucky enough to have it?

You have private health care then @Chattybum?

this from PookieDoo is telling

I find it so demoralising when the Tory policy is constantly centred around ‘making hard work pay’ as if I am a lazy old scrounger. How could I work any harder?

When the Tories say they want to make work pay - what they mean is they want to cut benefits so much that minimum wage jobs pay more than that. It is nothing to do with rewarding hard work.

I would hope that a Labour government would want to make work pay by increasing the social housing stock so that low paid workers aren't paying such a high proportion of their pay to private landlords. Social housing is a public good.

One thing the UK needs is a proper system of accredited apprenticeships (Germany a good example) with properly controlled pay and qualifications.

Maybe Sweden not a good example for some people but Germany, the Netherlands and other European countries offer plenty of things that when suggested by Corbyn* are rejected out of hand as Marxism Gone Mad.

I'm not a Labour supporter in that i agree with 100% of what they say/do, but i allign with them a lot more than the parties of class based elitism.

*Also. What's with the personalisation of this? Corbyn is the leader of the labour party. They are Labour policies. Is everyone really so afraid of him? What is it that he does that scares people? the suggestion that people on 80k pay an extra 20 quid in tax?

Brefugee, the personalisation (demonisation?) thing is the Tory way, and the likes of the Telegraph, Sun etc. Listen to any of their speeches, look at the headlines and it's all "Jeremy Corbyn...", even as a defence to their own fuck ups!

Labour policy is made by its members. Of course there are advisors around the leadership team, but in my time as a member I can't recall there being any policy that was not first voted on at conference.

look after your own education and look after your own health forget about council housing, make your own way in the world

This could be read another way.

Instead of saying the state should look after people I think young people should look after their health, education, housing and life

Saying young people are not responsible for their health is saying it is ok for them to drink , smoke, eat and shove anything up their nose because they shouldn’t be responsible for their health.

Shouldn’t young people actually research education and choose the course that is most relevant to their life goals than treat university as a 3 year party.
Don’t tell me it isn’t. Dd has friends away at uni.
I seriously worry for the state of their livers

The time for relying on the council to house you has passed. Their is a housing shortage in this country people need to sort out their own accommodation.

They also need to be able to run their own lives without the state having to hold their hand and provide everything on demand

I find it grim that the state already plays god with where people are housed, how, when and how much it costs. How the state decides where your child will be educated, what they will learn and what it will and won't fund on the NHS.
With money you can opt out now - pay for private education or private health care or buy a house where ever you want.

There are already too many people living on the streets where I am.

Educational outcomes are already to closely linked to parental income and education than inherent ability.

I don't want to live in a country medical bankruptcy is common or where even more people get substandard care due to costs.

@ReanimatedSGB what a beautiful post. Really succinct and the the point. I hope you are one of the rare ones who has a meaningful job that pays well.

and it’s all part of the contraction of the public realm and the public state.

This is actually quite complicated. One the one hand, we have utility companies and even Pickfords which were once nationalised and are now private. On the other, as others have said, the state is now involved in many more aspects of people’s lives than it was - think of the national curriculum or controls over council tax.

I am no fan of Jeremy Corbyn Chattybum but you wondered why people have such different views on this topic. If everyone has to take responsibility for their own health and education, what happens to people born or who acquire the sort of disability which prevents them from doing this? I think the state’s role is to provide health and education to its citizens. In return, citizens should expect to work and pay taxes to help pay for this. Education is the best way we have to help people learn about how to be responsible. When we rely on people to do everything for themselves, it perpetuates inequalities. Look at housing. In many parts of the UK, young people who don’t have families who can help them, will find it hard to buy a home. I also think that societies with higher levels of inequality have more crime.

I find it grim that the state already plays god with where people are housed, how, when and how much it costs. How the state decides where your child will be educated, what they will learn and what it will and won't fund on the NHS.

The state does not play god, it gives people options (well it doesn't currently for housing, but that's part of the issue).

You get to apply for the school you believe is best for your child. You have a choice in where you attend university and what you study.
Schools will always be told what to teach because we have standardised exams. Surely you're not suggesting we get rid of them?
People have a choice to rent or buy property, but where those options are not practicable, the state provides an alternative. No one is forced to live in social housing, but everyone that needs it should have that option available to them.
For healthcare, you are guided by the advice of a specialist. Not every treatment will be available on the NHS (and nor should it be), but a properly funded NHS will ensure you receive the best treatment for your condition.

These things are enabling, not controlling.

Shouldn’t young people actually research education and choose the course that is most relevant to their life goals than treat university as a 3 year party.

I'm on my third degree, and can honestly say that this attitude is outdated. Of course there will be people who drink too much, especially in the first term, but there are plenty who work hard, and spend their university years volunteering and developing their careers.

Every student I know thoroughly researched their options before committing to the course they did.

If you expect young people to be responsible, then stop stereotyping and looking down on them.

The time for relying on the council to house you has passed. Their is a housing shortage in this country people need to sort out their own accommodation.

And if they can't do that, then what? I know people who were chucked out of home at 18 (and younger), without social housing they would be homeless (and often, now, they are).

I agree with both those posts mrsmaisel

@MrsMaiselsMuff I agree with you. I not complaining about the situation as it stands, I'm asking why people are eager for there to be LESS choice, which is what JC and his hardliners are advocating.

I do get what you are saying about enabling Vs controlling and it's a reasonable argument. However I don't want a government to sweep in, promise to take care of me and then remove the options that give me choices currently.