AIBU to ask for your best comeback to this work colleague...

[Seraphina77]

A male work colleague today said to me that employed women/men who choose not to have children should still be entitled to take 12 months off, paid at the equivalent of maternity/paternity pay because "then it's fair".

I was completely sidelined and apart from explaining to him that maternity/paternity leave is not a holiday, I couldn't get my brain in gear quick enough to come up with a cogent argument in response!

Help me out mumsnet... how would you have responded???

I'd probably respond that people with no children will benefit from the children others have produced.
It costs money to raise the children who will be workers when childless people will retire and need care.
How is your co-worker prepared to compensate you for that?

That also covers the children are bad for the environment argument.
Birth rates in developed countries don't replace the population. Exclude migration and European populations are dwindling.
It's middle income and low income that are driving the population increase.
That's the reason governments in developed nations encourage having children. Or have to encourage migration.

How is your co-worker prepared to compensate you for that?

The co-worker is already paying taxes that will provide NHS maternity care, free prescriptions for pregnant women and children even if the family earns £££, child tax credits, child benefit, state school buildings, equipment, teachers' salaries, 30 hours free nursery care or whatever it is working parents get nowadays, children's play parks and equipment, NHS optician vouchers for children who need them, NHS dental care ditto, free school meals for children who need them - I'm sure there is more the state provides for the pregnant and their offspring.

I think we childfree people amply pay for those things from which we can derive no direct benefit - that's how taxes work. They benefit society. The childfree don't generally begrudge the above - I don't - but there are parents here up in arms at the suggestion we might get something relatively modest back in the form of paid leave.

but there are parents here up in arms at the suggestion we might get something relatively modest back in the form of paid leave.

You get it back in the form of your pensions and benefits when older, the doctors and carers and all sorts of people who hold society together and produce wealth when you retire.

@ScreamingCosArgosHaveNoRavens @Lweji You also got the benefits of the services you have listed when you were a child. Maternity leave is for the baby more than the mother.

I'd probably respond that people with no children will benefit from the children others have produced.
It costs money to raise the children who will be workers when childless people will retire and need care.
How is your co-worker prepared to compensate you for that?

People with children will also benefit from other people not having them. Smaller class sizes, more resources to go around. It all evens out.

Lweji Seabear - The same applies to parents - so they benefit twice (or more if they have multiple DC) whereas the childfree only benefit once.

Not all the things listed were around in my young day, anyway. Not much in the way of mat leave - my mum had to give up her job.

I'm paying into my own pension!

I have a child and I agree with your colleague, in fact my childless cousin has said similar.

Some type of statutory leave for all workers, which can be used as they choose would be nice! Longer than annual leave, obviously.

There will always be people who play the system e.g. taking all of the leave then returning then getting pregnant, or going off sick, but that's always been the case.

Some jobs are harder than looking after a kid, and some kids are harder to look after than being at work, so no side can win that argument.

Hes right.

I agree with him. It’s one of the reasons I had a baby!! 🤣

For me, it was a holiday. I know it’s not the same for everyone but I had a very easy baby.

"Absolutely, of course he should. Though he'll have to look after a small child 24/7 for the entire year coz 'then it's fair', innit?"

You're forgetting all the work put in by parents to raise the children, as well as the money lost.
Financially, people without children end up better off than those with. Don't even mention the extra work that is not paid.

The financial benefits given to families don't compensate enough to make it worthwhile to have children compared to not having.
Parental leave is a minor contribution to the effort.

The reality is that parents who take a long parental leave lose out to childless coworkers in terms of career, not to mention the relative loss of involved parents. Many men don't suffer because their female partner cushions them from the effects of having a family.

I'd love to see true fairness, then.
Childless people forbidden from working longer hours, not able to work outside school/childcare hours, not able to work at home, not able to travel overnight, take many last minute days off.
And parents actually paid for their parenting time.
How does that sound?

A lot of the points made on a previous thread about SAHM receiving government assistance have been made on this thread too.

Would your colleague make the same comment to someone who was being paid company sick leave?

I am sure maternity pay and benefits are to ensure there is no financial (and only financial because we know the reality) pressure for a small baby to be removed from its mother. You know, it's only ethical.

Childless people forbidden from working longer hours, not able to work outside school/childcare hours, not able to work at home, not able to travel overnight, take many last minute days off.

This cuts both ways, though. You're assuming that everyone wants to do those things. It can be extremely annoying when the childfree end up being the ones who are expected to do overtime, travel, and work during peak holiday periods - because people with children have the 'get out of jail' card of claiming childcare responsibilities.

Personally, the last thing I want to do is work extra hours or travel overnight, but I have no cast-iron excuse to avoid these things.

You are invoking the stereotype that childfree = career-minded.

In any event, if you are a two parent family, it's possible that one of you might still be able to do all those things anyway.

In my experience, people with children find it much easier to get short notice time off because they always say their DC are ill - of course, they might be - but try asking for a (non-sickness) day off at a moment's notice for any other reason, and see how far you get.

Childless people forbidden from working longer hours, not able to work outside school/childcare hours, not able to work at home, not able to travel overnight, take many last minute days off.
And parents actually paid for their parenting time.
How does that sound?

I am a parent, still did all these things.
I also work with many child free people who refused to do any of those! (didn't last too long, but they still had a choice)

But parents paid for their parenting time? On which planet should that happen!

But parents paid for their parenting time? On which planet should that happen!

In a way, it already does. They get child benefit and, depending on income, working tax credits. The state is happy to throw money at people because they've produced children. No tax credits for the childfree on a low income - you just have to suck it up.

Everyone has an equal opportunity to be a parent. So it’s fair.

The problem is that workplaces are so fixated on having 'family friendly' policies that the needs of those whose 'family' doesn't consist of children under 18 are overlooked

Yes, yes & yes

Or 'family friendly' means child friendly, not elderly dependant parent friendly

Also most companies over a certain size allow staff to take 12 months unpaid as a sabbatical

Ha ha ha ha (works for company with 10,000 employees)

If only

Everyone has an equal opportunity to be a parent. So it’s fair.

Sorry, but that's just not true. Some people are infertile. Some people don't have a partner, or don't have a partner who wants children.

who is doing your work whilst you are off? Equality works both ways.

They get child benefit and, depending on income, working tax credits.

true, but it's hardly being paid - and benefits are not just available for parents. Child benefit is only being paid to some parents anyway, not all household qualify.

Some people are infertile. Some people don't have a partner, or don't have a partner who wants children.
still a lifestyle choice - valid, but still a choice.

Infertility is a lifestyle choice? What on earth are you talking about?