to think it's not that difficult to understand Labour's position on Brexit

[chomalungma]

Apparently many people don't understand Labour's position. It's not that difficult to understand.

1. Renegotiate a better deal with the EU.
2. Put that deal to the people in a people's vote within 6 months
3. Enact the referendum
4. That's it

And yes,when it comes to the vote, people within Labour may have different views - some may want to remain, others to take the deal.

This is not about whether you agree with the position - that's a whole different thread - this is about whether the position is difficult to understand or not

Do you understand this policy?

I was listening to Peter Dowd (Labour's Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury) squirming on LBC - he was asked five times whether he thought leaving the EU (under Labour) or remaining in the EU was better for the UK economy. He really didn't want to answer that question!

Why should the EU deal have anything to do with workers' rights? Would our employment laws not be best decided by our electorate once we've left? And their laws by their voters?

Article 24 of the latest draft Withdrawal agreement which the Tories support.

"ARTICLE 24
Rights of workers

1. Subject to the limitations set out in Article 45(3) and (4) TFEU, workers in the host State and

frontier workers in the State or States of work shall enjoy the rights guaranteed by Article 45 TFEU and the rights granted by Regulation (EU) No 492/2011 of the European Parliament and of the Council1. These rights include: (a) the right not to be discriminated against on grounds of nationality as regards employment, remuneration and other conditions of work and employment; (b) the right to take up and pursue an activity in accordance with the rules applicable to the nationals of the host State or the State of work; (c) the right to assistance afforded by the employment offices of the host State or the State of work as offered to own nationals;" etc etc

@Moonmelodies you might want to have a read of this article:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50096400

The EU set minimum standards for workers rights. As members we must abide by them. This ensures a “level playing field” (eg prevents one country from slashing minimum wage to make their country more attractive to businesses who want to exploit workers etc).

The proposed Withdrawal Agreement (which is legally binding) has this “level playing field” rule removed. Instead it appears in the non-binding political declaration, which means the stance could be changed - and may well need to be as part of trade negotiations.

I don’t know why you think the public would get a say on this, beyond this general election - this is our time to have a say. If we re-elect the tories then we are giving them the mandate to make these changes as they see fit. Do you trust Johnson with your employment rights?

Workers rights were in the original withdrawal agreement, which was voted down. Of course thievery don't give a damn about workers rights, so why did Labour vote with them, knowing what the erg were going to do?

The UK workers rights are currently better than those in the EU, no?

Sorry I’m unsure what you’re asking - why did Labour vote with whom, and on what specifically?

Yes, but what sort of "better deal"? What if the EU won't negotiate further (& who could blame them)? What exactly will the question(s) in the "people's vote" be?

Yes, it is difficult to understand Labour's position because they cannot/will not provide any real details.

I am not an employment specialist but there seems to eb a huge amout about workers' rights in the main new Oct 19 version of the withdrawal agreement from which I cut and pasted just above. I have the 500 page download on my PC. Most of that new WA is the same as the old not surprisingly as it took years to agree with the EU and the EU is not minded to change it.

See also
"The European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill 2019-20 (the ‘WAB’) was published on 21 October 2019. Clause 34 and Schedule 4 of the Bill set out “protections for workers’ rights”. The clauses are largely identical to draft clauses published by the May Government in March 2019." commonslibrary.parliament.uk/economy-business/work-incomes/withdrawal-agreement-bill-protection-for-workers-rights/
However you are correct that we might choose after Brexit not to bring in new EU rights (or any other EU laws) that come out after Brexit which is what leaving means but of course we could and we could have much stronger and better ones too. in fact one reason Corbyn has traditinoally been keen to shake off the EU is because he wants much more ability to interfere in free markets, give state aid and things like that currently banned under EU law.

Did you read the article I posted?

If we leave and are having to negotiate trade deals (from a very weak position, to boot) do you think Johnson would be pushing for better workers rights than we already have? Or do you think he’ll be doing whatever he legally can to make the UK a more attractive prospect?

Do you want the same sort of workers rights as America?

I am going to preface what I say by stating that I am no great Boris fan. I suppose my political views would be classed as ‘Blairite’ or ‘Red tory’ or whatever the insult of the day is. I also voted Remain.

I do believe this great angst over workers’ rights and environmental standards is a sort of meta commentary on many Brits’ attitudes towards our own democratic processes. In other words, ‘we’ feel that our rights in law can only be protected by a foreign trading bloc.

It’s bizarre. Why is our vote even important if we need to defer our law making to other countries in order to protect ourselves? Then I hear the argument that the UK ‘leads the way’ on environmental and employment law anyway and the EU follows suit. In that case, what do we need the ‘protection’ of EU laws for? we need to develop a bit of backbone.

Of course, Boris would have us all shipped off to work as unpaid slaves in Trump’s new genetically modified chlorinated chicken little ranches within six months of a Torah majority. And they accuse the right wing media of scaremongering...

So nowCorbyn wants to hand all youngsters a council house.
How?
Borrow 150 Billion for things.
You do know he will bankrupt the UK.

If labour win the election, do they not think they'll be able to enact legislation to protect workers rights in the UK outside of the EU?

Face it, labour's EU policy is an absolute shambles. Firstly the arrogance that they could somehow thrash out a better deal, as if the conservatives are intentionally trying to negotiate a crap deal. They'll negotiate this deal whilst both the EU and the labour government knowing that the country will vote on it again, so a pretty ingenuous starting position, a bit like Cameron's plea to the EU for better UK terms knowing that we were voting on leaving anyway.

This labour position looks like a classic decision by committee. Corbyn is aware that the Islington/student/hippy crowd want to remain, and a very large core of the old labour working class north will vote brexit. It is a policy designed to be neither remain or leave and pleasing both. Any independent observer that would not vote for a Nazi chimp if it had a red rosette can see it.

I heard labour on R4 this morning announcing even more change, giving women the presumption of flexible working, state supervision of the gender pay gap, threats to levy fines on non complying firms. You can see this labour team has the least management/executive experience we've ever had, none of these changes is tested or being phased in sensibly.

I think all parties should be legally bound to do what they say they will during campaigning.

You can tell, like the private schools mess, that Labour have no intention of doing three quarters of ehat they say they will. Most of it is just designed to make people even more resentful and angry.

they've committed to enough changes for about 20 years of government - it will be an utter fiasco. I wish we had better options to vote for

This labour position looks like a classic decision by committee. Corbyn is aware that the Islington/student/hippy crowd want to remain, and a very large core of the old labour working class north will vote brexit. It is a policy designed to be neither remain or leave and pleasing both. Any independent observer that would not vote for a Nazi chimp if it had a red rosette can see it.

So it couldn’t possibly be that one party recognises that the country previously voted for a completely unknown scenario and thinks we have the right to a final say based on what’s being offered, given the wide ranging impact of what occurs next?

So it couldn’t possibly be that one party recognises that the country previously voted for a completely unknown scenario and thinks we have the right to a final say based on what’s being offered, given the wide ranging impact of what occurs next?

That’s one way of looking at it - largely favoured by remainers.

The other way of looking at it was that people were quite clearly informed that they had NO IDEA what final arrangement they were voting for - from any one of a number of unknown scenarios that ranged from No Deal to a Norway style arrangement - and they voted for it anyway. They did so on the basis that, regardless of the outcome (and whether it was legally binding or now) the majority view would be honoured.

So it couldn’t possibly be that one party recognises that the country previously voted for a completely unknown scenario and thinks we have the right to a final say based on what’s being offered, given the wide ranging impact of what occurs next?

If it did, Labour would just offer a straight referendum, wouldn’t they? But the cowards want to fool their Leave base that they’re still Leaving by conducting a fake “renegotiation” against which they intend to campaign!

I see what you are saying deathgrip but I think labour are being very disingenuous. I voted remain and still believe that would be better for the country as a binary choice against leave.

But the constant uncertainty and delay is more damaging than either option. Labour's position has been to honour the referendum result, but frustrate a deal and block no deal. Their manifesto pledge is to further muddy the waters. Sooner or later labour will have to say whether they are leave or remain. My guess is that they're nearly as split over it as the conservatives, but are keeping quiet in an effort to take down the conservatives. Its self interest rather than looking out for what is best for the country.

Firstly the arrogance that they could somehow thrash out a better deal

Exactly right. And we know this new Labour deal will have a SM and CU in it, which is not what many Leavers want in terms of a deal. So they are being sold a lie - the final referendum will be a 'remain' deal vs actually remaining.

Do Labour seriously think euroseptic voters won't see through that? And will be satisfied with those options? Do they seriously think the question of how tied to the EU we should be will go away as a result?

I agree with PP's that say we can make our laws regarding employment protections. If any party tried to reduce them they would be booted out of power by the electorate anyway.

My guess is that they're nearly as split over it as the conservatives, but are keeping quiet in an effort to take down the conservatives. Its self interest rather than looking out for what is best for the country

I think that's a given rather than a guess. Almost worth them getting in just to see them absolutely shit themselves about how to approach the EU and formulate a new deal 🤣🤣

Do Labour seriously think euroseptic voters won't see through that? And will be satisfied with those options? Do they seriously think the question of how tied to the EU we should be will go away as a result?

Exactly - Labour have such contempt for the voters that they think no one will notice them offering a Remain VS Remain Referendum as if that were a real choice!

If it did, Labour would just offer a straight referendum, wouldn’t they? But the cowards want to fool their Leave base that they’re still Leaving by conducting a fake “renegotiation” against which they intend to campaign!

No because they want to see if it’s possible to negotiate something better. Both deals on the table are problematic (or has everyone forgotten that NI exists, or is it just they don’t matter).

I can’t believe that a party trying to secure the best deal possible for the U.K. is seen as arrogant for wanting to do so. Do you think Boris was trying to thrash out the best possible deal?

They blocked the deal and no deal because both would be detrimental to the country. Thank god they did. I was personally quite encouraged to see so many MPs standing up for their constituents needs, as they’re supposed to do. And it wasn’t just Labour - it was every other party, and a significant number of tories! But of course it’s just Corbyn being obstructive / indecisive 🙄

I agree with PP's that say we can make our laws regarding employment protections. If any party tried to reduce them they would be booted out of power by the electorate anyway.

Congratulations. This is the most naive comment I’ve read today.