To think that calling transwomen Male terms is against guidelines?

[ChilledBee]

That said, it’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them. The same is true of the expression ‘Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’. Likewise, many feminists are affronted by the term ‘cis’ and ‘terf’, so using these terms will make civil debate less likely. As we’ve said, context is everything – but it’s likely that going forward our moderation team will delete these expressions

So this is what Mumsnet say yet they allow threads which refer to the possibility of trans women using a changing room as "blokes". If I were a Trans woman considering giving my opinion around my presence in female changing rooms, hearing everyone refer to people like me as a man or a bloke would "hurtful" and "I'd struggle to engage". Why is this allowed, Mumsnet?

I think that deliberately using words like “bloke” is intended to be provocative and shouldn’t happen. And I believe in using preferred pronouns in social settings just for politeness. But I would struggle to call the person who recently doused a woman in patrol and set fire to her a woman just because they wanted me to. They just set fire to a woman, ffs!
Mind you, I am against my better judgement amused by the T shirt Blair White sells that says “They/Bitch”

It’s a biological truth that trans women are at risk of prostate cancer. Should we ignore that risk because only biological males have prostates.

What I think is just bigoted bullshit is calling trans women, "men" just to be hurtful.

Transwomen have male sex chromosomes (XY). Unless they have had the surgery, they have penises.

To state the truth is 'bigoted bullshit', apparently. It's a fact, not something that is said to be hurtful.

I simply said that if you want to differentiate between those who have always presented as women and have the anatomy to match

I don't 'present' as anything. I am an adult human female, that is, a woman. I may have to buy one of those T shirts that explains this very clearly.

’ A lot of posts in the changing rooms thread weren’t talking about trans people. They were talking about the fact that the policy enables any “bloke” can claim to identify as a woman and thereby gain access to the (nominally) women’s changing room. Not trans women, just blokes who fancy going into the women’s changing room for whatever reason’

Yes Artesia. When women and girls feel they have no right to challenge a man (not a trans person at all) walking into in the women’s toilets or changing rooms it leaves them vulnerable to all kinds of creepy exhibitionism, assault or rape. How many of us have been flashed at as children and adults? How many of us have been sitting minding our own business on quiet public transport and realised the man across the aisle is wanking? How many of us take our young boys to the women’s toilets with us when we’re out because we worry about creepy men in the gents?

When males stop referring to me as a fat ugly cunt, gold digger, bitch, how, thot, front hole, breeder, ‘Karen’ and any other gendered slur then I’ll start giving a damn about males who find it offensive to be called males.

Hear hear!

Women talking about this subject, and using factual language, are fed up with being told to “be nice” or to shut up. Fuck that shit.

You've misunderstood OP. I for one was talking about males who identify as men, actual bogstandard no identity issues blokes. The M&S policy being anyone can use the changing room they feel "comfortable" in. You think pervy blokes won't notice that that includes them if they say they feel more comfortable in the women's?

How do you 'present as female' anyway. I'm concerned I might be doing it wrong?

Yes we get that people no longer use terms such as 'spastic' for the reasons you have given.

How on earth is that comparable to using the word 'male' to describe someone who is male? Especially when talking about circumstances where actually, the fact that that person is male is highly relevant?

How do you 'present as female' anyway. I'm concerned I might be doing it wrong?

If you have ever tried to set your own boundaries, speak the truth of your own eyes or considered a man's feelings even marginally less important than your own, you almost certainly have been doing it wrong. Apparently.

I'd like to know why is it up to women to accommodate these men. Why should we let them into our changing rooms, our toilets, our hospital wards.
These are male bodied people, they wish to identify as women. Human beings cannot change sex Ever, it's not possible.
If they want to be more gender non conforming by wearing different clothing and makeup, that's ok but it should be men that move over and share their spaces with gender non conforming men.
It worked in the 80s. However back then they weren't demanding women's spaces, they didn't demand that people lied about their biology.
It's worth remembering that self id is not the law in this country, I didn't and don't consent to share my sex based spaces with men.

Not sure if this has already been linked but it's certainly worth a read:

www.spiked-online.com/2019/10/16/flora-vs-mumsnet-the-culture-war-is-out-of-control/

Language is very important. Public ignorance of biology is widespread so the use of terms like "sex change" or "born in the wrong body" leads to much misunderstanding.

There was a thread on Fem Chat a while back from a biology teacher horrified to discover teenage students believed surgeons could literally change people's sex. Some people are under the impression that it'll soon be possible for a man to get pregnant. Children who think a surgeon will be able to give them a fully functioning sex change are being lied to. And plenty of people don't grasp that "born in the wrong body" is a metaphor rather a biological fact.

So there's a lot of confusion. While discussing it in real life I've found plenty believe all transwomen have genital surgery. Once they realize the overwhelming majority of men who identify as women still have, and plan to retain, their penis I notice people are far less comfortable at the idea of TW in women only spaces.

It's therefore important to be clear what you're saying. If a TW is a fully intact male it makes for clarity to say so. TWAW is a political, not a factual, statement. Human beings cannot change sex. And sex is not a spectrum, which is something I've often seen asserted.

MN are pretty clear - if you believe that a post contravenes talk guidelines then report it, and they will consider deleting it.

They delete loads of posts every day precisely for breaching the Talk Guidelines.

I haven't read the M&S thread, but it's clear from the discussion on this thread that women need words to describe both themselves and people who are not women.

'Blokes' is one of those words.

No-one is insisting that the people that they are using it to refer to identifies as a 'bloke' or like being called it (in the same way many women don't identify with or like being called 'ladies' or 'girls' or 'lasses').

But there is a collective understanding about what the words mean, which is the purpose of communication.

On House of Games this evening , one of the questions was “Do men or women have XX chromasomes?”
I was relieved when there was an uncomplicated biological answer!

The guidelines need clarification...I will not refer to a bloke with blue hair who tells his GF that she is now a lesbian because he is non binary despite them having sex that results in pregnancy as a woman.

you're not like other girls
You're a bit blokey
So a butch dyke? not a proper woman then
You look like a bloke
If women wanted equality they got it, look how that bloke knocked her out for getting in his face
Act like a man get punched like a man

Women get described in Male terms frequently, we are supposed to be the weaker sex, if we can handle it why do you assume Men can't?

Yes, if that person identifies as a TW and doesn't want to be referred to as a man

I'm a cunt, I don't like hearing it.
I tell lies, I don't like being called a liar.
I don't have as much societal value as a TW I don't like hearing they're more important than me,
My body is shit after kids I dont like hearing it.
I'm white and therefore not subjected to the racism Black women suffer I don't like hearing I've got white privilege

Whats your point?

Women get described in Male terms frequently, we are supposed to be the weaker sex, if we can handle it why do you assume Men can't?

This is such disingeneous bullshit, I can't even... but I'll bite.
I'm a woman. A biological woman for clarity before anyone asks.
If I get called a bloke, a bit blokey, dyke, (all your words) I'd just roll my eyes and think oookay lol.
As a heterosexual, biological, woman and identifying in all senses as woman, I couldn't give a shit what people call me.
Transwomen though, why should they have to keep putting up with "blokey," "man" etc?"
I don't even know why I'm bothering but meh.

On House of Games this evening , one of the questions was “Do men or women have XX chromosomes?”

Interestingly, that question was apparently set by a child. I'd be embarrassed if I thought I couldn't grasp something that a 10 year old had.

Transwomen though, why should they have to keep putting up

If I get called a bloke, a bit blokey, dyke, (all your words) I'd just roll my eyes

Why? If it's important enough that you feel they should not be spoken to like that why are you not?

Stop infantilising people, either you are the same (TWAW) or TWs need protection but you don't. It cant be both

Women get described in Male terms frequently, we are supposed to be the weaker sex, if we can handle it why do you assume Men can't?
Because those men that identify as women are so much more special, so brave and so stunning.
Honestly? I think it's all about validation, they want to force others to accept their identification.

I think it's all about validation, they want to force others to accept their identification

It is validation, but it is validation that women are responsible for keeping TWs happy, because TWs occupy a place in the hierarchy that we mere women are subordinate to

There's another name for that, but I don't want to risk a ban!

There's another name for that, but I don't want to risk a ban!
Too true

Why? If it's important enough that you feel they should not be spoken to like that why are you not?

You what?
Why am I not bothered whether people call me blokey or dykey?
Because I couldn't give a shit because I'm a bio, hetero, woman and I don't care if they try to imply I'm not.
I'm not trans though and I don't even presume to know what it's like to be trans - I just don't get all this shit on here about intent on name calling in the guise of "I call a spade a spade" or "wot, it's truth innit"
type posts.
Yes, I get there's valid self ID concerns, but all this bollox on here from some (not all) is extra.