To think that calling transwomen Male terms is against guidelines?

[ChilledBee]

That said, it’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them. The same is true of the expression ‘Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’. Likewise, many feminists are affronted by the term ‘cis’ and ‘terf’, so using these terms will make civil debate less likely. As we’ve said, context is everything – but it’s likely that going forward our moderation team will delete these expressions

So this is what Mumsnet say yet they allow threads which refer to the possibility of trans women using a changing room as "blokes". If I were a Trans woman considering giving my opinion around my presence in female changing rooms, hearing everyone refer to people like me as a man or a bloke would "hurtful" and "I'd struggle to engage". Why is this allowed, Mumsnet?

God I hate all this crap

The N word was conceived as an insult. It is not a statement of biological reality. That analogy doesn’t work.

BUT, I think there are a lot of posters here who are hateful to trans people, and like you I feel calling transwomen ‘blokes’ is deliberately hurtful

I have used the term 'blokes' in reference to men using women's changing rooms but it isn't intended as hateful or hurtful. 'Bloke' is defined as an informal, British term for a man. You are overthinking this.

Does it matter that I am hurt that males are being permitted to use women's toilets and changing rooms? Of course it doesn't!

Transwomen are male. That's what makes them transwomen. If they weren't male they would just be women.

Facts and reality are not derogatory.

The phrase 'transwomen are women' is a total ideological belief, without any root in reality. Asking me to say 'transwomen are women' is like asking me to say 'God exists'. I don't believe either of those statements and I won't be made to repeat them by anyone.

Gosh, it's lucky that I don't give a shit about hurting men's feelings, LOL!

I think it's so telling as well that women are being forced to give up their sex based rights and spaces, being forced into situations that they might find really upsetting and uncomfortable, and are potentially being put in danger from a culture where any man can self id as a woman and gain access to vulnerable women.

But apparently none of that matters. What really matters is that a male might get upset by being referred to as.... a male.

The misogyny is breathtaking to be honest.

So you are saying that calling men, men, is the same as called black people the 'N' word?

Yes, if that person identifies as a TW and doesn't want to be referred to as a man.

The N word was conceived as an insult. It is not a statement of biological reality. That analogy doesn’t work.

It's not used as an insult by many of PIC though is it?

Pick other terms then, particularly those used to describe those with a disability. Many of those weren't invented as insults but came to be insults and we don't use them anymore. Why not? Why don't people tell those with disabilities that they'll call them whatever they like and how dare they tell people what they can and can't say? No one would call someone with cerebral.palsy the "S" word yet that was once considered a correct term and even a charity was called it but now it's a derogatory term and we don't use it.

I have used the term 'blokes' in reference to men using women's changing rooms but it isn't intended as hateful or hurtful.

Of course it is.

So you are saying that calling men, men, is the same as called black people the 'N' word?

Oh, FFS.
That clearly was not what the pp meant, way to ignore what they actually said!
The N word is insulting to black people, rightly so you wouldn't (I hope!) call them it, but why are trans fair game?
As in all this "I can call them man cos they man, only tell it like it is, me" shite? Why is that OK?

Same as the "N" word can be used between POC but it can still be considered an offensive term when it is used by other people under different circumstances. Do you go around calling people the "N" word claiming no one is going to tell you what to call them?

Are you seriously trying to draw a parallel between a factual, science-based description and a racial slur?

If I was referring to transwomen as, I don't know, "beardy beefy himbos" then you'd have more of a point but they are male. In a hundred years when their skeleton is dug up by 22nd Century archaeologists, they're going to say "here's a male skeleton".

Same as the "N" word can be used between POC but it can still be considered an offensive term when it is used by other people under different circumstances. Do you go around calling people the "N" word claiming no one is going to tell you what to call them?

What? How does that even make sense.

If you are born a male, you are born a male. It's a fact.

What does that have to do with the N word. Are you saying that POC are born the N word?

How is that a fact?

I really dont care if i offend them, penis= man, no penis =woman

So if we have to refer to someone who still has full male genitalia and may be dressed in male clothing as female is Rachael Dolezal black?

As in all this "I can call them man cos they man, only tell it like it is, me" shite? Why is that OK?

Because the fact that their sex is Male is the whole point.

We segregate on sex. Not gender. The fact that they are born Male is a fact and important.

Yes, if that person identifies as a TW and doesn't want to be referred to as a man.

What about if that person is causing me distress by trying to encroach on my female space when I don't want them to. Am I allowed to use facts and call them male then?

I have used the term 'blokes' in reference to men using women's changing rooms but it isn't intended as hateful or hurtful.

Of course it is.

Never in the history of this planet has an informal term for men - namely, 'blokes' - been hateful or hurtful. Until now, apparently.

If someone has a penis, they are male. In other words, they are men. Informally they might be referred to as blokes. The link between a penis and maleness is an indisputable biological fact.

I am not going to kowtow to an agenda whereby males, men or blokes are permitted into women's toilets or changing rooms.

Yes, if that person identifies as a TW and doesn't want to be referred to as a man.

Just to be clear, if a man says some words such as 'i am a x' then nobody is ever then allowed to refer to him as a man ever again in case he gets his feelings hurt?

So he is in an ambulance with a suspected heart attack, but because the nursing staff can't say 'its a heart attack because these are the symptoms of a male heart attack', they have to treat him as a woman and so not treat the heart attack just in case his feelings get hurt?

Right? Is that where you are with this?

Are you seriously trying to draw a parallel between a factual, science-based description and a racial slur?

It's an example of names that we have used that we no longer use because people found them derogatory, hurtful or insulting. If you disagree with that one then there are plenty of others to choose from - terms originally used to describe people with cerebral palsy or Downs syndrome for exams are no longer used and we now use terms more acceptable to those that have these conditions. Why? Why aren't you protesting that you will use whatever names you want to?

A lot of posts in the changing rooms thread weren’t talking about trans people. They were talking about the fact that the policy enables any “bloke” can claim to identify as a woman and thereby gain access to the (nominally) women’s changing room. Not trans women, just blokes who fancy going into the women’s changing room for whatever reason and therefore abuse the policy. Referring to them as men, guys, blokes is all totally acceptable

When males stop referring to me as a fat ugly cunt, gold digger, bitch, how, thot, front hole, breeder, ‘Karen’ and any other gendered slur then I’ll start giving a damn about males who find it offensive to be called males.

“ People who use the term "trans woman" to identify are making a binary statement about their gender. A trans person isnt.... find me people who identify as a trans WOMAN and male.”
Well, Blair White and Rose of Dawn, neither of whom are favourites of TRAs, it has to be said, say that they are biologically male, although they both use female pronouns.

MN walk a very fine line to try and allow discussion and debate. There are those who believe that we shouldn’t be allowed to talk about the impact of self ID at all and that having any concerns at all about things like changing rooms is automatically transphobic.

If you feel a post should be deleted then report it. See what MN say. I can see that being referred to as ‘blokes’ might be upsetting so I would talk about those with penises or the male bodied in women’s changing rooms or toilets. That would still upset some.

Imagine living in a world when hurting someone’s feelings by stating a biological truth can be escalated.

Women who go along with this complete shit show amaze me.