To think that calling transwomen Male terms is against guidelines?

[ChilledBee]

That said, it’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them. The same is true of the expression ‘Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’. Likewise, many feminists are affronted by the term ‘cis’ and ‘terf’, so using these terms will make civil debate less likely. As we’ve said, context is everything – but it’s likely that going forward our moderation team will delete these expressions

So this is what Mumsnet say yet they allow threads which refer to the possibility of trans women using a changing room as "blokes". If I were a Trans woman considering giving my opinion around my presence in female changing rooms, hearing everyone refer to people like me as a man or a bloke would "hurtful" and "I'd struggle to engage". Why is this allowed, Mumsnet?

I don’t understand how that debate takes place without saying that trans women aren’t female. It’s a valid position to hold.

Blimey. If they ban everything that offends, affronts, or is hurtful, how are we going to talk about it at all? The sides are so polarised.

Are you saying we cant discuss biology or scientific fact?

It's quite easy to spread any offensive views about trans women by simply referring to them as trans women. Or trans people if referring to them as women rankles your little hearts so much. If you don't want to call women who aren't trans, "cis", you can simply call those people women and trans women,"trans women", or again, "trans person". You can speak about trans people who present as Male and trans people who present as female if you want to highlight which trans people you're attacking.

Oh dear, here we go again.

Have you reported the individual posts OP?

I suspect there is a difference between talking about a specific person, and talking about transpeople in general, partly because not all transwomen talk about themselves in the same way. Some state very clearly that they are Male. So there is no simple rule for the group as a whole.

Secondly sometimes people make an assumption that people are talking about transwomen specifically. In the context of mixed sex facilities, it's often males who are the concern, not transgender anything. Once you make something that was female only mixed sex, any Male can use it.

What you don't need to do is refer to trans woman as "blokes". It is completely unnecessary

Should female changing rooms be restricted to females? Are they an exclusive space restricted to women? If yes, define women? Surely the definition is unambiguous? If not, who has access and does that access infringe on the right of women to exclusively female spaces?

What’s the difference between the words “blokes” and “men”?

If think these days its so easy to derail a debate by throwing in somewhere the phrase 'that terms offends me'.

This issue NEEDS debate to progress. However I think some things need to be let go for the sake of debate and progress. Society cant even agree what makes someone a woman or a man, we need to agree on that before discussing pro-nouns

Please explain why women who are not trans, should be called 'cis'. I am a woman, that is, an adult human female. Woman has existed as a word for a very long time. It is easily understood. There are women, and trans women.

I doubt there are any people who readily identify as both a transwoman and male. Some people might "cross dress" and then you have dragged queens while might assume female pronouns when they're in drag but people who refer to themselves as a trans man or woman usually go by neutral or the pronouns associated with their presentation rather than their birth.

I have a real issue regarding using pronouns that people want rather than whata accurate.

Look at the next 2 paragraphs. Same situation different use of pronouns.

Karen white was a sex offender. As a woman, She was placed in a womens prison. She was a danger to other women. She sexually assaulted women inside the prison.

Karen White was a sex offender. He insisted he was a woman and he waa put in a womens prison. He was a danger to women. He raped women inside the prison.

See how the use of preffered vs correct pronouns, is important?

trans people who present as Male
BEING an intact male is not the same as presenting as male.
I'm not bothered what someone wears if I'm sharing a changing room with them. As they will be taking it off. A woman who identities as a man is very welcome in a women's changing room, however they "present".

I'd agree calling them 'blokes' is pejorative and posts that do so should be removed, but that wasn't the question in your thread title, OP - transwomen are male, so what is your issue with that?

So this is what Mumsnet say yet they allow threads which refer to the possibility of trans women using a changing room as "blokes"

To be fair to MN, if you do see that, report it as stuff like that (usually) does get deleted.

I don't care about "cis". I simply said that if you want to differentiate between those who have always presented as women and have the anatomy to match and those who haven't always presented as woman and don't have the a atomy to match, you can use "woman" and "trans woman" instead of "cis" and "trans".

There is a whole thread about M+S changing rooms where they readily refer to trans women as blokes or men.

Bloke is a male term. It isnt fitting for a trans woman and by Mumsnets own guidelines,should be deleted.

I doubt there are any people who readily identify as both a transwoman and male.
Debbie Hayton
Fionne Orlander
Miranda Yardley
Rose of Dawn
And lots of others who aren't public about it.

Society cant even agree what makes someone a woman or a man, we need to agree on that before discussing pro-nouns

Society have defined it. Its wether you are XX or XY.

Some people want to change that.

Er no there are a number of transwomen who refer to themselves as male. Are you going to give them a telling off?

If men stopped trying to silence women and usurp their spaces we'd be happy to sort other problems out and language may become kinder (as it was before).

Is it true to assert that ‘society can’t agree on what makes someone a woman or a man?’ I would say those definitions are biologically determined and have been recognized by societies across the planet for thousands of years.