To think that calling transwomen Male terms is against guidelines?

[ChilledBee]

That said, it’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them. The same is true of the expression ‘Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’. Likewise, many feminists are affronted by the term ‘cis’ and ‘terf’, so using these terms will make civil debate less likely. As we’ve said, context is everything – but it’s likely that going forward our moderation team will delete these expressions

So this is what Mumsnet say yet they allow threads which refer to the possibility of trans women using a changing room as "blokes". If I were a Trans woman considering giving my opinion around my presence in female changing rooms, hearing everyone refer to people like me as a man or a bloke would "hurtful" and "I'd struggle to engage". Why is this allowed, Mumsnet?

Some people interpret that to mean a biological female who is trans and prefers to identify as something other than a woman.

Well they are factually inaccurate then aren't they? Why should TW have to be referred to as male for the sake of some people who are uneducated?

I find trans woman clear enough so would use that term. Only using the biological term where needed.

I've not read the full thread, however I don't believe in gender... I am not Cis, I don't confirm to gender stereotypes.. I don't dye my hair and get my nails done... & have a traditionally male hobby. If I'm calling someone male/female the pronouns I use are based on sex.

I am female by biology (which is the only requirement) and I believe in science which confirms there are two sexes (and very rarely genetical dsd disorders) and billions of personalities...

I don't care if you are a man wearing a dress and make up (this should be fine and acceptable by society) or a woman who wants a buzz cut and wears suits... everyone deserves respect and fair treatment.

What I have a major problem with is the selfishness that is being shown especially by grown men to reduce the safeguarding by removing single sex provisions for my girls. I want to ensure they have bodily autonomy at all times and especially when they are vulnerable: this includes toilets, showering facilities, changing spaces and dormitories (and other communal sleeping).

Validation for an attempt of presenting as a males perception of being a woman is not worth our children's safeguards, and I condemn anyone who thinks otherwise.

Because trans women are male. Biological sex cannot be changed.

Whatever you identify with, when it really comes to it, it’s what’s in between your legs.

Because trans women are male. Biological sex cannot be changed.

How does describing someone as a TW change their biological sex? It doesn't does it? It's very clearly saying they are a TW.

I find it extraordinarily hurtful to have to refer to a male person as a woman, as if my actual biological reality should be reduced to a feeling. That literally does erase me as a person. My feelings are no less important than those of any male.

I do not appreciate being referred to as 'cis' either. Considering the people who do this think they are woke and considerate, the level of rudeness they display in wilfully and persistently misgendering me without asking how I identify is breathtaking. Males are pussyfooted round. Women are told they have to identify with their oppression. On a personal note, I don't need to know someone's pronouns either. In the outside chance I will find them interesting enough to talk about, I will decide what words to use. More likely, I won't even remember their name within moments of them saying it, never mind the xie/xeer/xumpadoo twaddle.

On top of this, no male needs to have an opinion on women's changing rooms, toilets and so on. We fought for them and we pay for them, whether through taxes or being customers. No group of males are so special that they can expect access.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras why are you ignoring most posters?

It really looks like you dint have a point so are picking out the ones, you think you can be right on.

You have already been told that experience shows that not everyone does know TW is a male presenting as their view of what a woman should be.

If everyone just referred to themselves and each other as male/female depending in what bits they had/how they appear and didn’t put any more thought or attention on it than that- then behaved/dressed/felt however they want to, things would be simpler and people would be happier.

I wonder if the OP has started similar threads on forums that are dominated by men? I know pistonheads is popular, my husband and a good few of his mates use that forum. There are threads on there that use words and phrases (about TWs) that I'd be banned for copying and pasting. I can't see that OP has started a thread over there policing their language.

One of the people you listed who apparently should be allowed in womens spaces, has committed violence against a woman.

Many women have committed violence against other women. And children. And men..and animals.

Some people interpret that to mean a biological female who is trans and prefers to identify as something other than a woman.

Well those people would be wrong. We don't change other terms that people commonly confuse. That person you're talking about sounds NB

Two points

You cannot change sex. I am happy to accept that a TW with a GRC should be treated as female for all practical purposes. However, liking fluffy kittens, eyeliner or any other stereotype does not make you female.

Self-ID is open to exploitation by predatory “blokes” who are not TW, have no intention or desire to transition, who may even be transphobic; but will be only too happy to exploit the opportunity to openly enter what were sex segregated female only spaces.

The M&S thread is full of talk about men and blokes because we are talking about actual men and blokes. When you turn women's changing rooms into unisex ones then men will have access to them. Not everything is about trans. HTH

That person you're talking about sounds NB

Who made you the identity police?

Many women have committed violence against other women. And children. And men..and animals.

And?

Who are women more at risk from? By a huge margin?

People born as male or people born as female?

Do you realise TW crime is recorded as crime committed by a female? So you cant even get accurate stats on crime committed by a female.

It can be a disciplinary matter where I work. My mate got a formal verbal warning for referring to a trans man as "she". It was just a slip of the tongue, she had known him for many years pre-transition, his transition was very recent, and she was talking about something he'd done some years earlier, when he was a woman.

It's tricky to get your head round transition being retrospective, imo.

Thought we'd been a bit trans light on AIBU of late. Here we go again.

why are you ignoring most posters?

I'm not. I'm up and down answering the door to a million and one trick or treaters and I'm doing this on my phone so I can only see 1 page displayed. It's a pain trying to respond when the posts are on the previous page, and anyway most of the posts are repetitive so I can answer most points with one response.

You have already been told that experience shows that not everyone does know TW is a male presenting as their view of what a woman should be.

And? Plenty of people don't know the correct way to refer to POC or those with a disability. It doesn't mean that we revert to the derrogatory terms that they do understand does it? We expect people to educate themselves not just stick steadfastly to the terms that they would like to use.

@LakieLady if you friend was inclined to challenge that, they would win.

You need to prove a pattern to says its transphobic. Rather than a momentary lapse with no ill will behind it.

Would it be a warning if you called a man presenting as a man, she?

The changing room thread was discussing men in the context of sharing changing rooms with women because M&S had said that they wanted people to be able to use the changing room in which they felt most comfortable. This leaves the door wide open for any man to say he feels most comfortable changing in a women’s changing room, regardless of how they ‘identify ‘.

It doesn't mean that we revert to the derrogatory terms that they do understand does it?

Naming the correct sex and things associated with are derogatory?

How is male derogatory?

Besides which, the point was made 'everyone knows that a TW is a man that presents as a woman'. The response that is that, that is incorrect.

Or should people just ignore the statement made?

Yes, plenty have repeated the same points. Which still havent responded to.

If you're in doubt about what's in the site's guidelines, read the guidelines.

If you have a problem with the way in which Mumsnet moderates its threads, contact Mumsnet.

Not difficult.

Original poster.

Can you explain what you mean when you refer to 'genuine trans'? Are you saying there are 'non-genuine trans'?

I wonder if the OP has started similar threads on forums that are dominated by men

Of course I've discussed trans issues with men. On a forum? No. But I won't have transphobic language in my house or be witness to it in my professional life without escalating.