To think that calling transwomen Male terms is against guidelines?

[ChilledBee]

That said, it’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them. The same is true of the expression ‘Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’. Likewise, many feminists are affronted by the term ‘cis’ and ‘terf’, so using these terms will make civil debate less likely. As we’ve said, context is everything – but it’s likely that going forward our moderation team will delete these expressions

So this is what Mumsnet say yet they allow threads which refer to the possibility of trans women using a changing room as "blokes". If I were a Trans woman considering giving my opinion around my presence in female changing rooms, hearing everyone refer to people like me as a man or a bloke would "hurtful" and "I'd struggle to engage". Why is this allowed, Mumsnet?

find me people who identify as a trans WOMAN and male.

Transwomen are male. If they were female they wouldn't be trans.

But Blaire White has referred to herself as male quite a few times.

Isn't that what you asked for?

Maybe in an academic debate about the science, you might use this premise to summarise your view but outside of that, I can't think of a reason you'd need to bang on about it TBH.
Can you not accept that people want privacy where they get undressed? And that if they can't have it they want a single SEX space?
Same with rape crisis, women's shelters, hospital wards.
Physical power is crucial in sport.

In other cases it's the socialisation as well that matters. So girls' schools, Girlguiding - it's not only privacy situations that are important, but also role models and shared social experiences.

But someone using female pronouns can still be happy to say they are male. It's not exclusive. They have a preference about pronouns, but in a conversation about sex based anything, thy can still be happier to make clear that they are Male.

It's quite easy to spread any offensive views about trans women by simply referring to them as trans women

What? Sorry to drag you back a page but you're going to have to explain that to me.

I can't refer to a transwoman as a transwoman because in doing so I am being offensive? So... I can see a person, I can idenitfy a person, I can be forced to accept a person in a space where I feel vulnerable, I can, if a lesbian, be chastised for not wanting to sleep with a person, but I cannot say, think, or apparently feel, that a transwoman is a transwoman... and that's without pointing out that a transwoman is, by any definition, always a man?

Oh! Ok then... Pshaw!

But to answer your question:

MNHW demand that we do not call any individual transwoman by masculine terms (unless like the list given above, they are happy to be identified as males, transwomen for such discussions) .

But when discussing transwomen in general we can say they are male... as that is the truth. All transwomen are men. So when discussing the M+S changing rooms thred we can discuss how we feel about men using female changing rooms and how it makes us feel. We can ask for any OTT posts to be deleted too. But stating that the point f the M+S changing rooms includes bra fitting and a replacement tem service... meaning your cubicle (that does not reach either ceiling or floor) is often open. As are those of women with small kids, buggies etc.

We can respond to some posters who suggest that women who are bothered by this simply stay at home, get clothes delivered, try them on there by sayin NO. This is not the 9th Century. Wmen will NOT stay indoors to allow The Men to access all areas as they choose. And that M+S nee to consider all of their customers, not just the male ones! We can call those hypothetical transwomen men, mainly because that is what they are!

@ChilledBee

Because on the emotive subject of changing rooms, if I see a human being with male body parts in the women's changing rooms they are a man as far as I'm concerned, I don't care whether you wear dresses or want to be called she, I'm referring to the genitals the person has ... this isn't hypothetical, I've encountered a 6ft naked person with male genitalia in the pool changing rooms at a Hilton I was staying at, no cubicals, the lady next to me screamed in shock.

This isn't about clothing choices, it's about genitalia

Something like this tells you that it isn't someone who should be in female toilets though. As would various other "tells". I think common sense would still prevail - Mike Tyson wouldn't be allowed in female spaces, Kelly Mahoney and FFS Caitlyn Jenner would. I say Caitlyn because despite being problematic as FUCK, CJ is genuinely a trans woman.

I'm not sure if you fully understand - and I'm not being goady or patronising there - that when an organisation decides to adopt self-ID (despite it not being law), coupled with Stonewall's "acceptance without exception", then common sense no longer applies. Literally ALL it takes is for any male-born person, whether Mike Tyson or the boy next door, to say "I identify as a woman" and they have access to those spaces. If you tried to challenge them, you would be accused of transphobia. It's not just about gender dysphoric people who want to present as a different gender to relieve their mental anguish at feeling they have been "born in the wrong body", and there really are instances of women and girls having been assaulted by male-born people with intact penises in mixed sex facilities. Only a very small proportion - I think it's about 15%? - of transwomen have reconstructive surgery and/or have a GRC.

That is what so many posters on FWR have an issue with, and why we might sometimes get tired of being polite about people who are invading our space in bad faith or with malicious intent, and there is nothing we can do about it until after an offence happens.

Blaire white identifies as trans gender as uses the pronouns she/her. She has also referred to herself as a trans woman many times. Had no idea who she was but found that from 2 mins on google So you now feel that your 2 minute Google is a far superior source of information that any of the posters here who have been following, discussing, exchanging tweets etc with Blar White for a number of years?

My my! The hubris is strong in this one!

In the M&S thread referenced one of the main issues is that it does give free rein to any men to use the dressing rooms. They don't have to be trans, and the staff wouldn't be allowed to query their identity. M&S have said that they would only do anything if someone was reported as acting inappropriately.

So yes, saying that they are allowing "blokes" into women's changing rooms is entirely accurate, and not dependent on whether you believe TWAW.

@Anotherlongdrive @BovaryX I think XX/XY argument determines sex. Is sex the same as gender?

Clearly you guys think that it does, but I also think there are people in this society who think it doesnt. I think if you ask anyone whos been through a sex change they would have a different opinion of sex vs gender. If a biological man underwent a sex change to be a woman, I think that person would want to be referred to as a woman. Its this that makes society disagree on what consitutes a women/man.

The traditional XX/XY argument doesnt really cut it anymore.

Society, as a whole, needs to agree on this before deciding what pronouns are suitable.

Men aren't women though.

If tw were not male we could all pack up and go home. We wouldn't need to have these discussions at all. They're really not that interesting.

I found the 'bloke' post on the other thread. 'Blokes' was the appropriate word in that context. Dodgy blokes absolutely will take advantage of opening up female spaces to anyone who says 'I am a woman'.

What did MNHQ say when you reported the post?

OP, a transwoman might wish they were a woman, but wishing doesn’t make it so.
As a doctor, I can assure you that it is impossible for humans to change sex.
I object to attempts by the TRAs to control language, to change the meaning of words, to invade women’s spaces, sports, refuges, shortlists and changing rooms.
It is an inconvenient truth that all transwomen are male. Every cell in their body contains XY chromosomes. And that remains so - surgery, hormone treatment, make up or costume notwithstanding.
I am a Christian, but I don’t compel atheists to say that God exists. They are perfectly entitled to have different beliefs, and not play along with mine. I do not scream that I am being “invalidated” or my feelings hurt by them.
It seems to me that a transgender person’s identity must be pretty precarious if the mere use of biologically accurate words will invalidate it. That sounds more like a shaky delusion that can’t cope with too much reality.
You can ask women to deny reality out of kindness, and polite consideration of transpeople’s feelings, but you can’t compel them to. And at the very least you should do us the reciprocal courtesy of staying out of our sports, changing rooms etc. Consideration goes both ways.

With the M&S thing.

A female felt uncomfortable with a male being allowed to change in a female changing room, then the female should take the clothes home and try them on there...

However, the male felt uncomfortable changing near other males, is allowed and encourages to change in the female changing room. And not once was it suggested that the male take clothes home to try on.

so it boils down to:

If you're female and uncomfortable - FUCK OFF HOME YOU TRANSPHOBIC ARSEHOLE
If you're male and uncomfortable - WE'LL ACCOMMODATE YOU AND DO WHAT WE CAN YO MAKE YOU COMFORTABLE

@CAG12
Hmm. I tell you what most certainly doesn’t cut it anymore. The attempts to silence women who are protesting about the fact that previously exclusively female spaces are being colonized by people with intact male genitalia. There is an Orwellian attempt to control and dominate the debate which looks a lot like trying to silence dissenting women. Not a good look. Not at all.

Why is it always women who get the short straw. Dont object to something that makes you uncomfortable and deal with it. Its like going back all them years but now we arent allowed to say anything because of peoples feelings

If a biological man underwent a sex change to be a woman, I think that person would want to be referred to as a woman.

However much someone wants it to be so, it is not possible to change sex. Having a boob job and a neovagina surgically constructed does not turn a man into a woman. (I actually feel desperately sorry for anyone driven to go through such life-changing and painful surgery and am still not sure how this fits with the WHO's assertion that transgenderism is not a mental illness.) They may present as stereotypically feminine but they are are still biologically male.

I really wish we could move away from sex-based stereotypes to a point where people who did not want to conform to them could present however they wanted without perpetuating this fiction that they can 'change sex' or were 'born in the wrong body'. Selling this lie to transgender people is not helping them; a longterm Swedish study showed that suicidal ideation increases after surgery - presumably when people realise it is not the answer to their unhappiness and dissatisfaction with self. It should be possible for a man to present a feminine aspect, call themselves a traditionally female name and still be accepted by everyone as a man and be safe in male spaces; ditto masculine women. People who hate their sexed body should be given sensitive, thorough psychological support and counselling to help them find peace with themselves, not encouraged into mutilating their healthy bodies.

@bovaryx I havnt once mentioned sharing changing rooms etc in my comments. You replied to my original comment about what society defines as a man/woman, and I replied back to you. Its a simple back and forth conversation.

Is sex the same as gender?

No. Sex is biology - XX/XY as you say. Genes, genitals, gonads, gametes.

Gender is a political hierarchical system of male domination and female subordination. It's a set of different kinds of practices and codified behaviours and systems that ritualise male domination and female subordination. Gender is about cementing and embedding and maintaining and reproducing the particular power relations between women and men. (h/t Julia Long)

Some people believe they have a 'gender identity' which seems to be something else again. Some people believe they have a soul. Fine, no problem as long as I am not also required to believe in those things or made to behave as if I did.

Well said Babdoc

@OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg I agree, I think sex based stereotypes are a bit out dated in terms of the trans people. So do you think there needs to be more genders, aside from the traditional 'man' or 'woman'?

I think XX/XY argument determines sex. Is sex the same as gender?

Male and man are sex

Woman and female are sex not gender.

Woman means adult human female.

We need to abolish gender not create more gender boxes.

think sex based stereotypes are a bit out dated in terms of the trans people. and for the other 99.9% of the world's population?

Man and woman aren’t sex based stereotypes

For me whilst they have a penis which only makes have they are male but then again I don’t comment on trans stuff