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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask supporters of porn to read this

608 replies

SmileEachDay · 29/10/2019 16:25

meaww.com/missing-teen-adult-video-pornhub-modelhub-snapchat-periscope

A missing 15 year old girl was spotted in videos hosted by Pornhub. Those of you who are “ok” with porn - are you “ok” with this?

The sentence the man involved in making the videos is for another thread, but is shocking.

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OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg · 01/11/2019 13:31

All your whataboutery seems to miss the point that decent people generally change their behaviour as much as they're able in order to minimise the adverse impact of their choices once they're aware of the harms done in the production or supply of a product or service - this could be boycotting it altogether, sourcing ethical alternatives, reducing their consumption, campaigning for better conditions for the workers. And I'm sorry but I simply don't believe that is happening here - I think it's clear from some of the posts that people prefer to assume that in the absence of concrete evidence to the contrary, their porn is some of the 'okay' porn without actually putting in any effort to ensure that that's the case, and so the harms will definitely continue because there seems to be very little appetite among porn consumers to demand changes.

That's without addressing the wider adverse effect porn is having on society at large, and especially the demands being placed on young women starting their sex lives with men who have been conditioned by mainstream porn to expect rough sex, anal, gagging etc as a baseline, as vanilla. I'm not aware which of the products or services listed above is having a similar effect?

AnalFloss · 01/11/2019 13:35

It strikes me as utterly bizarre that anyone can be as aware of the issues around trafficking and exploitation as you are and not think “Well, porn is one thing that is easy for me to give up, so I will”.

I genuinely think porn involves less exploitation than most of those industries. We're mostly talking about women with all the trappings of 1st world Western society. Anyone with the prerequisite skills for porn, has the prerequisite skills to work a till or stack shelves. I think some people don't take that route because it doesn't pay very well.

AnalFloss · 01/11/2019 13:42

All your whataboutery seems to miss the point that decent people generally change their behaviour as much as they're able in order to minimise the adverse impact of their choices once they're aware of the harms done in the production or supply of a product or service - this could be boycotting it altogether, sourcing ethical alternatives, reducing their consumption, campaigning for better conditions for the workers.

Very few people are actively seeking out videos and images of clear abuse. That is the minimisation. Your argument is that they could be viewing porn which does not look like it's abusive, but actually is. At what point would you accept that an actress (because you're not talking about actors) is making a choice (or as much of one she can make under capitalism)?

That's without addressing the wider adverse effect porn is having on society at large, and especially the demands being placed on young women starting their sex lives with men who have been conditioned by mainstream porn to expect rough sex, anal, gagging etc as a baseline, as vanilla. I'm not aware which of the products or services listed above is having a similar effect?

I'm skeptical about the above, but I'll take it as face value. You're comparing the sort of exploitation that has people in developing countries working in conditions that would likely be illegal for us, to some young women being in a situation where someone might ASK them to engage in an activity that they might not want to, at which point they can say "no" and continue with their lives. That's not exactly a damning indictment of the effects of porn.

I've asked and been asked to engage in sexual acts that were refused. I'm sure anyone with any kind of sex life has.

SmileEachDay · 01/11/2019 14:05

🤯 we’ve had whataboutery
🤯 we’ve had NAPILT
🤯 we’ve had everyone who objects is a prude.

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over50andfab · 01/11/2019 14:18

We’ve also had a lot of good balanced and informative responses from those who do watch porn, a lot of which are ignored 🤷‍♀️

I wonder if a lot of what is being said is because, whilst we know that exploitation can be everywhere, in porn we might actually come across someone being abused and visibly see it (and no one is denying it exists) whereas when using another service or buying another product it is not so evident...so that’s more acceptable somehow.

So don’t watch porn - any porn - just in case, but use another service/buy a product whete nothing is seen or known, so we remain oblivious, and that’s ok.

PBo83 · 01/11/2019 14:26

🤯 we’ve had whataboutery
🤯 we’ve had NAPILT
🤯 we’ve had everyone who objects is a prude

We've also had a complete inability to listen to any other opinions other than the 'virtuous' ones perpetuated by those who dislike porn in any form. Being 'virtuous' doesn't make you right (particularly when anyone who calls your 'virtue' into question using alternative scenarios is immediately branded a 'rape apologist')

itputsthelotiononitsskin · 01/11/2019 14:41

Just giving up porn also means not supporting men and women who are legitimately taking part in a legal career they are entitled to. But putting these people out of work doesn't seem to bother those of you who clearly view making and viewing porn as itself an immoral act.

There are porn actors (and those who used to work in the industry) who work hard to make the industry safer.

If you actually care, you would seek out and listen to them and what they say helps. Instead of justifying your existing world view that porn is disgusting and all who partake in it are morally bankrupt.

PBo83 · 01/11/2019 15:15

If you actually care, you would seek out and listen to them and what they say helps. Instead of justifying your existing world view that porn is disgusting and all who partake in it are morally bankrupt. But actually doing something is so much harder than preaching your moral superiority online (whilst doing precisely fuck all to help the cause you purport to care so much about)

SmileEachDay · 01/11/2019 15:17

virtuous

It’s not about virtue. You keep insisting that it’s about morality, virtue, whatever. It isn’t. It’s about women and girls both individually and as a class being harmed.

I agreed earlier that there are lots of exploitative industries. I don’t think the existence of other exploitation is a pro porn argument. I do think being exploited in terms of employment and sexually is a special kind of shit, but I do also care about exploitation more generally. Advance search me, I started a thread about car washes and trafficking a while back.

And as for rape apology - a poster saying that someone “might” be being raped isn’t enough to stop him pursuing “better feelings” - I don’t know what else to call that.

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PBo83 · 01/11/2019 15:22

women and girls both individually and as a class being harmed.

Women and girls are not a 'class', men are not a 'class'. Implying such implies that one is 'superior' than the other and surely your arguement is the contrary.

SmileEachDay · 01/11/2019 15:24

Women and girls are not a 'class', men are not a 'class'. Implying such implies that one is 'superior' than the other and surely your arguement is the contrary

Um...what? Of course women/girls are a class? What do you think that means?

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over50andfab · 01/11/2019 16:00

So...what is the answer...should we avoid at all costs any service
/ not buy any product where exploitation might possibly exist, just on the off chance that in doing so we might be condoning and/or gaining some sort of positive experience from it? Where is the line drawn and who decides this?

frostedviolets · 01/11/2019 16:30

And as for rape apology - a poster saying that someone “might” be being raped isn’t enough to stop him pursuing “better feelings” - I don’t know what else to call that

You've taken that comment so massively out of context.

What he actually said was should he not pursue someone who looked to be OVERAGE as in adult, legal age to have sex, who he thought was OVERAGE just because there is a tiny chance she might actually be a teenager who looks older than she actually is.

frostedviolets · 01/11/2019 16:32

do think being exploited in terms of employment and sexually is a special kind of shit

Yes it's horrendous, but believe it or not the porn industry is not the only industry guilty of it.

SmileEachDay · 01/11/2019 16:35

Yes it's horrendous, but believe it or not the porn industry is not the only industry guilty of it

I don’t dispute that. That is not an argument for porn though.

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SmileEachDay · 01/11/2019 16:36

You've taken that comment so massively out of context

No I haven’t. And it would appear MN agree with me.

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BertrandRussell · 01/11/2019 16:36

“ Yes it's horrendous, but believe it or not the porn industry is not the only industry guilty of it.”
Why do you persist in your view that this comes as a surprise to other posters?

Lessthanzero · 01/11/2019 16:37

So pro porn people are saying it may well be the case that they are waking over a girl being raped, but that's OK because people get abused in various way in lots of industries.

Thats like saying cows are killed for beef, so I may as well kick this dog to death.

over50andfab · 01/11/2019 16:45

To the last 3 posters (Smile, BR & lessthan) I’ll ask again...

So...what is the answer...should we avoid at all costs any service
/ not buy any product where exploitation might possibly exist, just on the off chance that in doing so we might be condoning and/or gaining some sort of positive experience from it? Where is the line drawn and who decides this?

frostedviolets · 01/11/2019 16:45

No I haven’t. And it would appear MN agree with me

I think you did.

There was no suggestion (thankfully, because that would be disgusting) whatsoever in that post that he would continue pursuing if it became apparent that she was actually underage.

All he was saying is that no one would not approach a woman in a bar who looked to be an appropriate, as in adult, legal consenting age, just incase she wasn't and just 'looked' older.

It would be very very different if the comment had insinuated he would deliberately go after an underage woman or if he had insinuated that on learning said woman was underage he would continue pursuing.
Both of those things would be deeply concerning and distressing.

But there was no suggestion of that.

I'm disappointed HQ saw fit to remove it.

frostedviolets · 01/11/2019 16:49

Why do you persist in your view that this comes as a surprise to other posters?

Why do you persist in your view that porn is the only one we should boycott despite most of the other industries containing abuse also being non essential to life?

What is it about porn specifically?

Is it that you think the treatment of abused women in the sex trade trumps the abuse of other groups of people?

Why does only porn need banning?

Why do the other industries also not require banning?

We've established they are not essential to life so why are we not banning chocolate, hair extensions, etc?

BertrandRussell · 01/11/2019 16:51

@ over50andfab I feel as if I have answered your question several times. But in case I haven’t, I think we should do everything in our power to avoid colluding with exploitation or trafficking. This is much harder in some areas than others. But in some cases it’s really easy. For example, don’t use nail bars or car washes. Or porn. Oh, and probably best to avoid buying diamonds- unless the industry has made significant changes since I last looked.

BertrandRussell · 01/11/2019 16:52

“ Why do you persist in your view that porn is the only one we should boycott despite most of the other industries containing abuse also being non essential to life?“

I don’t.

over50andfab · 01/11/2019 16:57

No, you haven’t really BR, you’re actually being pretty selective in your thinking. So what about all the other businesses where exploitation possibly exists...tea, coffee etc as in the list above? Who decides if someone just might be being exploited, say, in a nail bar? What about all those working legitimately and happily in a business we then decide to boycott?

SmileEachDay · 01/11/2019 17:05

I mean, there is always the chance that people are focusing on porn because that’s what this thread is about.

On the thread I started about car washes, people focused on that..interestingly, got lots of similar “but there’s exploitation in lots of industries” answers on that one too.

Whataboutery is always, always about trying to distract by pointing and yelling “look! Look at the bad thing over there”.

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