To feel v upset Mil told 6 year old, 'daddy doesn't love granny' ¡

[Howwlydufeel]

How would you feel in these circumstances.

I'm already very wary of Mil and what she may or may not say to younger dd 6.
Usually they visit maybe 3 times a year and she is with elder sibling. On one visit it seemed like fil took older dd off to one room and Mil took younger elsewhere, which I found odd. So dh asked that they are kept both together.
Then dd would say odd things, eg getting her to bed dd would say ' I love you mummy, I don't love grandma.' When I've not said a word about anything related... Her tone is odd like someone has been saying something like... 'you love grandma more don't you' then in firm answer.. Dd is responding... She would come out with stuff like that.

Dh doesn't get on with his dp he finds them extremely challenging, negative and Mil is just strange, always so negative, the subject, tone.... It's just not pleasant being around her.
So we cut dc visits right down and to less time and usually ask older to watch younger and as said dh asks they are kept together unless they naturally go off to play.. Anyway, for 3 hours younger went alone and this is what she came back saying!

'granny said daddy doesn't love her because he doesn't go round and there and I want a sleepover.'

I never get the impression dd is saying this off her own back re sleepover because the next mornjng i say brightly 'so dd, would you like a sleepover soon' and she says very firmly 'no'..
Fil is pushy salesman and repeats and I've seen him action before putting ideas into their head... 'wouldn't you LOVE a sleepover with granny and grandpops, wouldn't that be fabulous, yeeeeesss, indeedy' and it's the tone of they go along with but once he is out the picture, it they don't want to go.

Years ago both dd had occasional sleepovers and both would return saying... 'please don't send us again'.

If we say, would you like a baby sitter next week or go to gp, they choose baby sitter. If we ever drive past and say to them... Would you like to pop in... They say 'no'.

Pils quite strict, very precious over house, Mil very much in control etc. Very ordered.

I never want them to feel that they can't see their gp. They only have one set. And when they have not seen them for about 5 months, and gp.. Take them out, the children really enjoy that. But they wouldn't want to see them for while after!

I just feel I can't trust her even less than I thought before. Personally I think that's a horrid thing to say to a 6 year old!!

For the record my dream situation would be normal kind people who put gc first and just be kind and happy. I would dearly love the odd weekend away whilst knowing dc having truly lovley time with gp.
It has not worked out for us, we have tried.

Is what Mil said emotionally abusive??

She has said to older dd in the past... 'I can't get toys here for you because I don't see you enough' (at that point they saw them for whole day every 3 months) roughly..

They do sound awful, I agree with those who've said to have as little contact with them as possible.

This bit I found surprising though:-

'If we ever drive past and say to them... Would you like to pop in... They say 'no'.'

My parents wouldn't have been impressed with me talking like that about my Grandma and I wouldn't have been the one to choose whether we paid them a visit. I wouldn't have been allowed to say I didn't want to go etc. Not in a bad way, just, whether I saw them would've been down to my parents, not me, and I would never have dreamt of trying to refuse to go, that would've been seen as being really impolite and inappropriate sentiment to express towards my GPs.

I'm not saying you're wrong as such, as obviously these GPs aren't mine.

I appreciate that you don't want to be seen to come between them and the GPs, but maybe take it out of the kid's hands a bit while they're little? Don't ask them if they want to go or not, they might feel under pressure one way or another to say a certain thing. They probably do pick up that you don't want to go there or don't like them being there.

This bit I found surprising though:-

'If we ever drive past and say to them... Would you like to pop in... They say 'no'.'

That's what I don't get either.
I always loved going to see my grandparents when little, we used to go weekly.
If we'd been driving past, do you want to go in? Me - yay, play out in the garden and there's always homemade chocolate cake!
What's not to like?!
Why would you say don't go there?
Especially with OP saying that she's overheard drippy poisony crap, i couldn't be doing with that. My gut would be like nope, don't care if that sounds woo

Oh ffs, enough of the handwringing, you and your husband are choosing for your kids to Ben emotionally abused by his shit parents, and actively sending the kids off to endure the trash. The only people you have to justify yourselves to are all your kids. There’s no need for any of this, you (plural) are damaging your kids by allowing this farce. Just stop it. It’s that simple.

You obviously have to decide what you want to do moving forward.

If it was me I would invite PIL out and no visits to their house if they are going to try to separate you.

Breakfast/lunch out with something preplanned afterwards that the PIL would not want to go to. Swimming, park, organized play date, dr app etc.

If they aren’t too bad in public it could work

Your FiL can't try court. He has no right to access your children.

Purple what about your dh?

Does he get on with them etc?

Mine are 3 miles away. We have been under constant pressure since the day dd born to let Mil have her. Constant constant pressure.

People like this are never easy to deal with. Fil is as hard as nails, has been very senior sales, very senior in large company. Mil said he has to win at any cost. The pressure on us has been enormous. My own df was very tough and he said fil gave him heart palpitations. The tone and way he speaks to us is suffocating.

Now I have that Rock solid unequivocal evidence.

Blonde, I can't be around them anymore I'm done.
If we went to the park, the whole trip would be conditioning towards getting them to visit at their house alone. And, she's made unsavoury comments in front of us. She's also very very good at making people feel sorry for her.
Sil told my dd once in a very serious voice 'granny is petty amazing isn't she, she really is'

Fil does the same, always pushing Mil how wondeful Mil is....

I've honestly never known someone to do so 'little' and expect so much back!!

You don't need rock solid evidence OP. I know you think you do but you really don't.

I had a toxic grandmother like this. We visited them maybe twice a year and that was enough. I wasn't manipulated into thinking Granny was great and my parents nasty when I grew up and decided contact myself as I wasn't that stupid or easily won over. They aren't going to suddenly change into people they aren't now around your children when your children turn eighteen. I think you are doing your own children an injustice here to think that they aren't going to be able to see them for what they are when they grow up, and that they are going to be so easily blinded by getting some money.

To the people who are surprised that he answer from the children about going to go and see grandma...

You haven’t have toxic grand parents. My memories from my paternal grand parents are one of dread. Dreading to go to their respective houses (they were divorced), feeling unwelcome and. Just plainly extremely tense. There was never a ‘let’s play in the garden and have biscuits’ feeling (couldnt play in the garden, had to be quiet etc)
This was as a young child and until I was in my 20s and decided to stop seeing them (which then started WW3 in the family).
I might nt have said NO if I had been asked but I sure didn’t want to go (sinking type of feeling that I still remember as an adult)

You PIL sound a bit like mine where there is always some (usually poorly executed) greater plan to what they say and the contact with them is never enough no matter how much you give. I think you need to make a decision about whether the relationship is useful to the children and you're therefore going to suck it up and supervise their contact OR they are so toxic that you simply cant bare them and you're children are probably better off not having that contact. They are hardly seeing them regularly anyway. A few times a year is not an established relationship. Have you considered some individual or couples counselling? You seem to have FILs rights and power fairly ingrained in you and like you need some special permission to make a decision about your children. I appreciate how people like them can make you feel that way but it isnt reality and you need to break out of their hold.

Re the money, I wouldn’t worry that they could ‘lure your dcs’ with a big sum of money.
My grand father tried that. It made me feel bought and I ended up hating any gifts from him....
He was also the one who threatened my dad to disowned him/me in his will (they are in france so can’t legally do that as such) etc.... whilst expecting regular contact, people to be nice etc...

The result was no contact from me bar a card once a year. Children and teenagers are very good at seeing through those tactics.

Oh and my maternal grandparents were awful. My grandad was a domestic abuser who was fairly paranoid and always had some ridiculous money making scheme. My grandmother neglected her child and allowed the abuse to take place. We were forced to see them at least every Christmas despite them showing no interest in us. Every visit was tense and full of arguments. My mum felt some stupid sense of duty like she could one day gain their acceptance. It never happened, it just ruined Christmas.

I understand your position. We’re in a similar one with MIL. We rarely visit, won’t have her stay in the house. We will not let her have DD unsupervised at all. Re the future if you go NC, the conversation should go like this:
Kids: ‘Why did you cut contact with GP? How could you do that?’
You: ‘They were very manipulative and we were concerned for your well-being. You said you didn’t want to go and we didn’t want to force you.’
Kids: ‘Okay’.

Have a read of ‘Toxic in laws’ by Susan Forward. It’s worth suggesting your DH reads ‘Toxic parents’ by the same author. You are trying yourself in knots worrying about the future and consequences but you need to focus on the hear and now. Bluff for a bit about seeing them ‘Oh we’re really busy, can we let you know?’ until there’s a good distance between them. I doubt very much your children will ask to see them again.

I feel sorry for your ILs

They aren’t perfect clearly but you are analysing every single way the behave or thing they say.
Your questioning of the kids (yes I know you said they tell you spontaneously but I can imagine your face and questioning that comes after that) and then micro analysis g every comment

GPS are rarely perfect. Often old fashioned or a bit pushy or house proud or whatever. They are human and I doubt you are perfect either.

But just own it- you don’t like them and don’t want to see them at all but know cutting them out your lives and that of your kids is a bit shitty so you are looking for a reason.

If I was only allowed a cursory visit 3x a year with my grandkids I’d be trying to get a shoe in for more as well. It might not be right that they are using your kids to do it but given you and DH are like a critical brick wall I guess they think if the DDs ask you if they can come more maybe they will get to see them.

Tbh you don’t sound very nice at all- manipulative yourself and determined to get your own way even if it means DH doesn’t see his parents and your kids have no GPs.

Sonja I think your right. One certainly switched on.
I am thinking about my own df family growing up, one set in particular, people make thier own minds up but I know what a well oiled machine the pils have.

Also my dc are offered biscuits and play in garden.

Is it Xmas.

If the dc were genuinely asking to see them, that would be totally different to them only asking as soon as they get in the car then never again.

There is a difference.

Black the pils seem very normal to begin with. By the time you realise something not right your quite deep in the dysfunction.

My dp were dysfunctional but very open and straight with it. No mind games.
They argued. That was it. Unpleasant, upsetting etc but there was an argument then it was over wait for the next one.

With pils it's like a Web you have unwittingly entered. You may get some token light hearted chat, or small talk, but then it's slowly about Mil, mils amazing cake, and then you can't put your plate on mils cloth, oh dear a crumb on mils cloth, Arghhhhhhh what an amazing cake mils made then, dc run and Mil says don't break my, my, my and suddenly its just Mil world. And she acts like a sort of martyr, and without knowing why you feel sorry for her... (she has cleaners, gardeners, no money worries, sil and fil), then negative comments start about people being grateful to her... And she does so much.. Etc...

It's weird. That's the light version without outing the hard stuff.

If I couldn't bear to see PIL and neither could their father - then my children wouldn't be seeing them - unless or until they were old enough to go by their own steam (16+). If one of us wasn't there to protect them /supervise then they wouldn't be going. (And we would discuss why in an age appropriate way.)

On the other hand your DH probably needs some help - maybe read "Toxic Families", get a counsellor, hang out on the Stately homes thread.

OP - my DH is in the process of seeing how dysfunctional his DPs are. He’s now very aware of the manipulation they use at every turn and all the lectures (poor them being the theme) hidden in strange small talk. He’s not at the point of considering NC, but is instead trying to talk to them and make them realise how much they hurt him by acting that way. I think he’s fighting a losing battle but am supporting him in doing what he thinks best.

Is it Xmas demonstrates perfectly how lots of people perceive this at face value and why it’s so difficult to have conviction in stating the behaviour as unhealthy

I agree Purpledog32 some of the posts on here illustrate how some people think their wants and needs should override other people’s feelings. Family relationships have to be balanced.

Dh mum makes him feel guilty and yet she never says a nice word to him and treats him like a spotty useless teenager.

He knows what they are like. He's just never been that protective barrier. Told them to sod off when it's been necessary, taken charge.
Dh is very much in grey rock mode with them.
If dh had not seen anything wrong, etc I would not be with him.

Purple mine is tried that over decade ago and he knows its useless and they will never change.

I've not read the whole thread, but have read all the op posts and any posts specifically referenced in those. Apologies therefore if I'm saying something that has already been said. Thought our experience might help though, specifically with your worry about the future and how the GPS might manipulate them and rewrite history.

My dh has no relationship with his dad, after he bullied him as a child. We see him possibly about once a year when we visit other family who live nearby. His mum comes and visits on her own. Where our situation is different is that fil is kind to our 2 subs, doesn't push for anything, and they live 5 hours away so wouldn't be in the situation you get in where they just turn up to school events etc.

Our boys are now 12 and 13. A few years ago they started asking why they don't see fil much. We've just been honest in an age appropriate way that dh doesn't get on with him, but that if they ever want to see him I would support that. There have been times when they did, but mostly have listened to dh, understand him, and actually aren't fussed about spending time with him as a result.

I think of you are honest with them, without directly being nasty, and tell them that if they ever want to see them you will support that (and then you need to supervise them given the way they behave, certainly until they are old enough to be able to extract themselves) then they won't be able to be persuaded that you stopped the relationship, because you wouldn't have. Equally bring honest with them, and following through with supporting a relationship if they want or not if they don't, might encourage them to be honest about how they feel (on the off chance they are being conditioned and feel they need to be positive about them to you but actually don't want to see them)

Even small children understand "not everyone gets on well with their mum and dad, because some mum and dad's aren't very kind to their children. Sometimes they are not kind to their grandchildren either. But sometimes people who are not kind to their children are very kind to their grandchildren. Dad doesn't want to see GPS because they weren't kind to him. I know that sometimes you are happy to see them and sometimes you aren't. If you want to see them we will always be happy to take you, but if you don't that's ok and we won't force you". Or something along those lines that fits better with your own experience.

As they get older you could add in something like "sometimes people do things that seem kind, like giving you presents or taking you to do nice things, but it doesn't feel kind because they say or do other things that don't make you feel good. If it doesn't feel good then it's not kind, and how you feel matters. If GPS make you feel like that please will you tell mum and dad?"

Once you start the open dialogue it will become easier to know what you can say. And if they ask questions just be honest.

It’s important to remember that in most situations when people are reasonable it is possible to repair relationships through dialogue. We shouldn’t teach our children that you just withdraw from relationships if people aren’t ‘being kind’, very often it needs both parties to come to better understanding.

HOWEVER, there are people who are incapable of repairing relationships, they cannot be empathetic or reasonable or even even truthful. These are people who it’s absolutely fine to withdraw from for your own protection. Never as a punishment to them, just in order to keep your own equilibrium.